23 replies to this topic

[WetWeek]

OK, long story here, so bear with me.

I'm a 165lb 52 yo fit male ~7 weeks into serious running after `18 years off. Running shoes have changed rather a lot in that time and I need some advice on the type of shoe best for me.

I have a high-ish, rigid arch, splayed feet and a bit of very late-stage pronation. On my running shoes I tend to wear the very outside of the heal and mid-to-outside 1/3rd of my soles on the forefoot. Back in yonder old days I ran injury free in whatever running shoes were on sale at the time. This was before anti-pronation features were widely adopted.

I had my gait analysed by video at a respected local running shop and was recomended neutral shoes - specifically Brooks Defyance. However, these felt way too soft and unsupportive in the heel and after 2 weeks gave me heel and patella tendon pain. On this basis I swapped to Brooks Adrenaline (versions 9 & 10). This was my choice, not the shop's recomendation.

However, after 6 weeks in the Adrenalines I've developed nasty tibial compartment syndrome on the outside of my shins necessitating a few weeks off. The pain commences after 10-15 minutes of running. My suspicion is that the Adrenalines are forcing me to supinate.

So, my question (finally) is: Would support shoes cause the tibial compartment syndrome if I need neutral shoes?

If I replace the shoes I'm thinking Brooks Glycerin 8, which I tried briefly on the shop's treadmil, and felt great - firmer and more supportive than the Defyances; or perhaps Brooks Infiniti 2, which I'm unable to try before I buy.

The other possibility is I've done too much too soon - I pretty much launched straight into 5km runs, as I already had excellent cardio-vascular fitness from gym\bike work. I'm off running for 2 weeks on the physio's recomendation and will recommence in a more gradual & controlled way.

So, thoughts on the shoes?

Steven

ps: I'm in Hobart, and with respect, definitely do not want to run barefoot ;-)

Edited by WetWeek, 19 March 2010 - 08:04 PM.

[seris]

Hi Steven,
I have run over 50 marathons and have only ever had problems when I was talked into a pair of Brooks. I am not saying they are not good for you, but why would you try a third Brooks style?
I ran in Asics for a long time until they got rediculously expensive and I was given a free pair of Nikes in the San Francisco marathon. The Nikes last a lot longer for me and I can buy them when I am overseas for about $75 AUD
If it ain't broke, don't fix it. You don't need to buy $200 plus state of the art shoes.... especially when you are 165 lbs and listen to your body.

[wombatoutofhell]

I'm going with Seris on this one. I used to run in Brooks, but switched to Nike and have never looked back. Give the Nike Pegasus or Vomero (i think that's what it's called) a go (neutral) or the Structure Triax or Equalon (support). I don't know if you have any factory outlets down there but all these models are about $130 to $150 if you buy the superceded models. Go into a few shops and try other brands too. Saucony, New Balance, Asics, Adidas, etc all make very good shoes.

[johnno]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

However, after 6 weeks in the Adrenalines I've developed nasty tibial compartment syndrome on the outside of my shins necessitating a few weeks off. The pain commences after 10-15 minutes of running. My suspicion is that the Adrenalines are forcing me to supinate.

So, my question (finally) is: Would support shoes cause the tibial compartment syndrome if I need neutral shoes?

I had compartment syndrome (and ITB) when wearing Adrenalines 7 & 8. Echoing what others have said, I found neutral Asics sorted the problem. When Asics became too expensive I tried Nike Vomeros. I remain injury free with Vomeros (among others) and think they're actually better than Asics.

Edit: Vomeros are neutral.

Edited by johnno, 20 March 2010 - 11:57 AM.

[MongrelRex]

I think that the brand of shoe is not the issue; it is whether you need a support or neutral shoe, and then whether you need a firm or flexible neutral shoe. Most good brands have shoes in each category, and I am in no position to recommend which category would suit your situation.

According to the list from my local running store, Brooks Defyance is in the flexible neutral category. I am in the 78 to 80 kg range and they recommended a firm neutral shoe for me, putting me in a Brooks Glycerin. At what weight you need a firmer neutral shoe, I am not sure.

Brooks Adrenalines, on the other hand, are in the moderate stability category.

I am not sure how someone can say a Brooks shoe in one category is rubbish when the person fixed their problem by moving to another brand in a totally different category.

For what it is worth, I have worn Brooks, Mizuno, Nike and Asics. I will not touch Asics these days, and I always seem to have problems with Nikes. I currently run in several pairs of Brooks and Mizunos.

I am no expert ... I am just killing time with a rant before I go and meet a young lass for lunch. ;-)

Enjoy your Saturday!

Rex.

Edited by MongrelRex, 20 March 2010 - 11:41 AM.

[johnno]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 07:41 PM, said:

So, my question (finally) is: Would support shoes cause the tibial compartment syndrome if I need neutral shoes?

For me, yes.

MongrelRex, on Mar 20 2010, 11:40 AM, said:

I am not sure how someone can say a Brooks shoe in one category is rubbish when the person fixed their problem by moving to another brand in a totally different category.

I didn't say Brooks were rubbish.

Edited by johnno, 20 March 2010 - 12:19 PM.

[seris]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 08:41 PM, said:

I had my gait analysed by video at a respected local running shop and was recomended neutral shoes - specifically Brooks Defyance. However, these felt way too soft and unsupportive in the heel and after 2 weeks gave me heel and patella tendon pain. On this basis I swapped to Brooks Adrenaline (versions 9 & 10). This was my choice, not the shop's recomendation.

However, after 6 weeks in the Adrenalines I've developed nasty tibial compartment syndrome on the outside of my shins necessitating a few weeks off. The pain commences after 10-15 minutes of running. My suspicion is that the Adrenalines are forcing me to supinate.

Brooks to Brooks....

MongrelRex, on Mar 20 2010, 12:40 PM, said:

I am not sure how someone can say a Brooks shoe in one category is rubbish when the person fixed their problem by moving to another brand in a totally different category.
Rex.

Both Brooks... what do you mean by another Brand? Fixing a problem by getting another problem isn't a fix in my opinion.

johnno, on Mar 20 2010, 01:03 PM, said:

I didn't say Brooks were rubbish.

... me neither.

[tim]

there is nothing better than finding a shoe that works for you and nothing more expensive trying to find that shoe. I have a bag behind me with 11 pairs of shoes in it. I hate it when you try on a pair of shoes in the shop and at best you get to run 20m down the road or at worst you get to bounce around like an idiot in the shop. You get home and head out and some shoes you hate after 7 - 8km and some take a few weeks. My favourite shoes for last year were Asics Trainers and Addidas for the really long stuff. The year before that it was the nike free 3.0. I have a pair of Brooks in the bag of shoes I did not like. They are too hard a ride for me. i like my running to be soft. There isn't really a good shoe or a bad shoe. It is all up to what suits you. the trick is finding what suits you without ending up with a bag full of shoes.

[WetWeek]

tim, on Mar 20 2010, 01:53 PM, said:

....... the trick is finding what suits you without ending up with a bag full of shoes.

That's my aim, Tim.

Thanks for the replies so far - all valuable opinions - keep em coming. Particularly interesting to hear Johnno's experiences with compartment syndrome being cured by change of shoe category - gives me hope.

I'm not averse to trying brands other than Brooks, but the only shop in Hobart where I can try before I buy (albeit on a treadmil) stock mainly Asics and Brooks, so my choices are limited. The shop concerned has been brilliantly supportive in helping get me into the right shoes, so I'd like to support them if possible.

Steven

PS. Hope you enjoyed lunch, Rex

Edited by WetWeek, 20 March 2010 - 03:46 PM.

[tim]

Hobart! Oh i love Hobart. You have that cool running shop there that only opened a few months ago? I always run up Mt Wellington a few times when I am down there. Love it when it has snow on top.

[WetWeek]

tim, on Mar 20 2010, 05:09 PM, said:

....You have that cool running shop there that only opened a few months ago?

That's the shop of which I speak I'm a huge rap for them - basically couldn't be more helpful. Not sure if it's OK to mention names, but I'll go out on a limb - The Running Edge in Murray St Hobart.

Pipeline track at Ferntree on Mt Wellington is a brilliant run - one of my favourites. Both fresh air and views to die for.

[johnno]

WetWeek, on Mar 20 2010, 03:45 PM, said:

Particularly interesting to hear Johnno's experiences with compartment syndrome being cured by change of shoe category - gives me hope.

Cured? No, compartment syndrome didn't just disappear after a change to neutral shoes.

Also, Adrenalines 7 & 8 were almost identical but I'm not sure they're comparable to 9 or 10.

WetWeek, on Mar 20 2010, 04:23 PM, said:

Pipeline track at Ferntree on Mt Wellington is a brilliant run - one of my favourites.

New Years Day 2009 - my first run up Mt Wellington and it was snowing! Very fresh.

Edited by johnno, 20 March 2010 - 07:54 PM.

[wunforfun]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 05:41 AM, said:

So, my question (finally) is: Would support shoes cause the tibial compartment syndrome if I need neutral shoes?

Yes! Tibia pain can be from wearing support shoes when you need neutral shoes. This is because of the excessive rolling out of the foot that occurs in supination which is countered by the tibia trying to 'pull' the foot back in placing excessive strain on the tibia causing pain.

So, thoughts on the shoes?

Along with the other comments, I like the Nike Pegasus (neutral shoes). They seem to be the most cushioned shoes around although the cushioning doesn't last as long as gel cushioning in other brands.

ps: I'm in Hobart, and with respect, definitely do not want to run barefoot ;-)

Barefoot would be the opposite extreme and can also cause problems so avoid it in large amounts other than walking around the house, etc.

Edited by wunforfun, 21 March 2010 - 08:17 AM.

[DistanceRunner]

My advice is to visit a podiatrist and get your issue properly analysed and identified. He/ she will be able to recommend specific types of shoes or perhaps orthotics if you need them. Or there may be another fix that can be applied.

It can cost more in the short term, but in the longer run it's almost always worthwhile.

[omy005]

DistanceRunner, on Mar 21 2010, 12:59 PM, said:

My advice is to visit a podiatrist and get your issue properly analysed and identified. He/ she will be able to recommend specific types of shoes or perhaps orthotics if you need them. Or there may be another fix that can be applied.

It can cost more in the short term, but in the longer run it's almost always worthwhile.

I totally agree, as I went down the route of different shoes accompanied by differing ailments for a few months. Until I went to my local podiatrist (who happens to be a very active runner) and got my self, shoes and feet sorted out. My health fund paid mostly for it as well.

Andrew.

[walshy2]

DistanceRunner, on Mar 21 2010, 01:59 PM, said:

My advice is to visit a podiatrist and get your issue properly analysed and identified. He/ she will be able to recommend specific types of shoes or perhaps orthotics if you need them. Or there may be another fix that can be applied.

It can cost more in the short term, but in the longer run it's almost always worthwhile.

I agree that getting a Podiatrist to advise is a good move

Regarding shoes, it's not so simple these days to simply ask do I need Neutral or Support. There is a new breed known as guidance (consider it a bit of a hybrid ie cushioned/neutral with some structure) The Brooks Infiniti's I run in are a good example, although I also have neutral shoes, Asics Nimbus, Brooks Glycerin & Ghost, plus some support shoes like Asics DS Trainers, aslo a couple of pairs of Trail shoes. I also wear orthotics

I have a personal view that running in the exact same shoe all the time can lead to repetitive impact and resultant issues

I generally have about 3 or 4 shoe brands/types on the go at any one time to break up the repetition.

[Bellthorpe]

I have a personal view (formed by thousands of miles of running) that running in the exact same shoe all the time does no harm at all.

Apart from track or trail I rotate three pairs of Mizuno, the brand I've used for quite a few years. Sometimes the models change depending on what's cheap on eBay, although I stay with a neutral shoe.

[Rico]

I’m starting to become a neutral/stability skeptic, or possibly denialist. At least with regard to myself.

Decades ago I ran in Nike Pegasuses and wore each pair until there was barely anything left between me and the ground. A near barefoot experience. And I never had any foot or leg problems.

Then about 10 years ago I started getting more serious and places like TAF all told me that I pronated and needed special shoes for that. So I wore Adidas Cairos to train for and run two marathons and they seemed to work well. They don’t exist anymore, but I think they were a pretty solid, heavy, control shoe. Then I moved to Brooks Adrenalines and have run thousands and thousands of kms in these and they have treated me pretty well.

Since it was working I assumed that they were right about the stability and that neutral shoes were off limits to me. But then I got a pair of (neutral) Brooks Cascadias and loved them and ran heaps in them, including the 6ft Track marathon a week or so ago. As an experiment I’ve gotten myself some Defyances, since they are meant to be a neutral Adrenaline, and have been doing some pretty solid runs in them with good results. Though they are bit softer/squishier than the Adrenalines, which I don’t really like as much.

I have all sorts of problems with shoes if they don’t fit quite right (toenails, blisters, etc), but based on my observations so far I don’t seem to have any issues relating whether they are neutral or stability.

Obviously other people have had very different experiences.

[WetWeek]

Rico, on Mar 23 2010, 10:55 AM, said:

Decades ago I ran in Nike Pegasuses and wore each pair until there was barely anything left between me and the ground. A near barefoot experience. And I never had any foot or leg problems.

Me too! If I remember correctly, I think i had the very first version of Pegasus. I too ran without injury in that shoe and now wonder what's changed. I suspect it's related to the bit about "Decades ago....."

Steven

Edited by WetWeek, 23 March 2010 - 02:20 PM.

[ausRunner]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 08:41 PM, said:

OK, long story here, so bear with me.

I'm a 165lb 52 yo fit male ~7 weeks into serious running after `18 years off. Running shoes have changed rather a lot in that time and I need some advice on the type of shoe best for me.

I have a high-ish, rigid arch, splayed feet and a bit of very late-stage pronation. On my running shoes I tend to wear the very outside of the heal and mid-to-outside 1/3rd of my soles on the forefoot. Back in yonder old days I ran injury free in whatever running shoes were on sale at the time. This was before anti-pronation features were widely adopted.

I had my gait analysed by video at a respected local running shop and was recomended neutral shoes - specifically Brooks Defyance. However, these felt way too soft and unsupportive in the heel and after 2 weeks gave me heel and patella tendon pain. On this basis I swapped to Brooks Adrenaline (versions 9 & 10). This was my choice, not the shop's recomendation.

However, after 6 weeks in the Adrenalines I've developed nasty tibial compartment syndrome on the outside of my shins necessitating a few weeks off. The pain commences after 10-15 minutes of running. My suspicion is that the Adrenalines are forcing me to supinate.

So, my question (finally) is: Would support shoes cause the tibial compartment syndrome if I need neutral shoes?

If I replace the shoes I'm thinking Brooks Glycerin 8, which I tried briefly on the shop's treadmil, and felt great - firmer and more supportive than the Defyances; or perhaps Brooks Infiniti 2, which I'm unable to try before I buy.

The other possibility is I've done too much too soon - I pretty much launched straight into 5km runs, as I already had excellent cardio-vascular fitness from gym\bike work. I'm off running for 2 weeks on the physio's recomendation and will recommence in a more gradual & controlled way.

So, thoughts on the shoes?

Steven

ps: I'm in Hobart, and with respect, definitely do not want to run barefoot ;-)

There's a lot of advice here so will offer only a bit. I'm a neutral with high arches and good biomechanics but I've yet to go to a physio/trainer shop that hasn't recommended Brooks Glycerine which is way off what I really need. I have no idea why they do this and it seems a bit one size fits all thinking.

I've tried Asics, Nike and Adidas with so-so results but, for the past year, I've worn Newton Gravity which are fine for me on any distance but may not suit you, maybe the Newton Motion instead if you're interested. So my advice is to read up and understand your biomechanics better. Shoes aren't a silver bullet either, the ITBS can be remedied with strengthening, stretching, etc.

Shin splints can come from overuse, too much too soon kind of thing which going on your history sounds like you have pushed a little hard to start with.

There tends to be a lot of "these work - I swear on my life" from a lot of runners for shoes, but I'd say find a trainer shop with people who actually run a lot of miles themselves. If you're neutral then stay away from big heels and thick soles as a rule of thumb

[Tuttle]

WetWeek, on Mar 19 2010, 10:41 AM, said:

The other possibility is I've done too much too soon - I pretty much launched straight into 5km runs, as I already had excellent cardio-vascular fitness from gym\bike work. I'm off running for 2 weeks on the physio's recomendation and will recommence in a more gradual & controlled way.

So, thoughts on the shoes?

Steven

ps: I'm in Hobart, and with respect, definitely do not want to run barefoot ;-)

In my (untutored) opinion, your "other possibility" is likely to have played an important part in your injury. The physio should be able to offer advice regarding a suitable shoe.

Cheers,
Chris

[jvt]

[quote name='Rico' date='Mar 23 2010, 10:55 AM' post='555035']
I’m starting to become a neutral/stability skeptic, or possibly denialist.


Are you questioning the International Panel on Corrective Cobbling?

[Rico]

Excellent

[WetWeek]

OK, hopefully I have my issues sorted. A visit to the podiatrist identified moderate late-stage pronation in the right foot (less so in the left). This was confirmed by the physio and also by video analysis at Running Edge.

So, armed with this, I spent a full hour today at Running Edge trying many shoes on the treadmil - both neutral and support categories from Brooks, Addidas and Asics. As an aside, the video evidence was interesting - eg. the Brooks Glycerin felt possibly the most stable of the neutral shoes, yet I was pronating the most in it! The camera doesn't lie, but it sometimes disagrees with what the brain is telling you.

After an exhaustive process of trial and error I've ended up with a pair of Asics 3010, which are specifically designed for late stage pronation and according to video evidence today have more gentle and gradual support than my Adrenalines.

Next week I'm returning to the physio, where hopefully I'll get the all-clear to resume running. Gradually. My tibial compartment syndrome seems to have settled well, but I won't really know till I start running again. Fingers crossed.

Many thanks to all for the helpful, thought provoking contributions.

Steven

Edited by WetWeek, 24 March 2010 - 09:08 PM.