Jump to content


Crossover Gait


  • You cannot reply to this topic
20 replies to this topic

#1 Victory11

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 714 posts
  • Joined: 14-December 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Gold Coast, Queensland

Posted 06 June 2010 - 06:36 PM

Hey, when I run my legs (my right leg more so) cross over the midline of my body quite significantly, and I was wondering if anyone knew what might be causing this? tightness? weakness? i have no idea aye.
I know its hard to say, but any advice would be very much appreciated on what i could try doing to correct this :Praying: i have tried making a conscious effort when running to not crossover, but that doesn't seem to help the slightest.

If it helps, i feel as though when i run, my right leg is very weak in that when it swings through, it isn't strong and feels like it isn't travelling straight, and then when i strike the ground it is quite unstable, more so than my left i believe.

Thanks

Support our Australian advertisers:

#2 TrackRunner

    1000-club gold-rated CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  • Joined: 21-December 08
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Brisbane-Queensland

Posted 06 June 2010 - 07:02 PM

View PostVictory11, on Jun 6 2010, 06:36 PM, said:

Hey, when I run my legs (my right leg more so) cross over the midline of my body quite significantly, and I was wondering if anyone knew what might be causing this? tightness? weakness? i have no idea aye.
I know its hard to say, but any advice would be very much appreciated on what i could try doing to correct this :Praying: i have tried making a conscious effort when running to not crossover, but that doesn't seem to help the slightest.

If it helps, i feel as though when i run, my right leg is very weak in that when it swings through, it isn't strong and feels like it isn't travelling straight, and then when i strike the ground it is quite unstable, more so than my left i believe.

Thanks

Could be your natural running style, Steve Cram used to do a similiar thing and look how good he ended up (world records)
I have read that slight bow leggedness is a cause, and it cause ancle/knee problems,
But if its not causing any issues i wouldn't worry bout it man.

#3 NeillS

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 275 posts
  • Joined: 04-May 10
  • Location:North Melbourne

Posted 06 June 2010 - 07:57 PM

If it's not a structural thing (ie bowed knees, tibias) then possible causes could be;

overly tight adductors
weak external rotators and lateral stabilisers of the hip
weak lower back muscles (quadratus lumborum, multifidus) allowing too much lateral flexion of the spine

as above though, if it's not causing problems, don't worry about it!

#4 Jimmy4990

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 389 posts
  • Joined: 13-May 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:The Oaks

Posted 06 June 2010 - 07:58 PM

Many issues here that you probably won't sort without a visit to a good physio. Could be weak glutes, tight adductors or natural structural issues just to name a few. It is my opinion that you need a professional opinion. It is true that this gait may cause you no problems, but it is definatly more likely that it will. Running is a balance & strength sport, requirering symmetry. Dominant strength will be amplified if left unadressed & again this will cause problems as you run more k"s. Sooner rather than later Victory. GoodLuck

#5 Jimmy4990

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 389 posts
  • Joined: 13-May 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:The Oaks

Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:10 PM

View PostNeillS, on Jun 6 2010, 07:57 PM, said:

If it's not a structural thing (ie bowed knees, tibias) then possible causes could be;

overly tight adductors
weak external rotators and lateral stabilisers of the hip
weak lower back muscles (quadratus lumborum, multifidus) allowing too much lateral flexion of the spine

as above though, if it's not causing problems, don't worry about it!
G'day Neil, The possible causes that you have listed above are likely to cause this young runner problems later in his career. Do you not think he would be best served to be assessed & have any weakness, tightness or strength imbalance addressed????
Cheers.
Jim

#6 Victory11

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 714 posts
  • Joined: 14-December 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Gold Coast, Queensland

Posted 06 June 2010 - 08:49 PM

thanks for the advice everyone :Praying:

#7 NeillS

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 275 posts
  • Joined: 04-May 10
  • Location:North Melbourne

Posted 06 June 2010 - 09:00 PM

View PostJimmy4990, on Jun 6 2010, 08:10 PM, said:

G'day Neil, The possible causes that you have listed above are likely to cause this young runner problems later in his career. Do you not think he would be best served to be assessed & have any weakness, tightness or strength imbalance addressed????
Cheers.
Jim


Depends. If he's having running injuries and pain, then yes. If he's been running this way for 10 years with no issues at all, why would you go and change it? How do you know he's a young runner? A runner can have perfect biomechanics and still be riddled with injury, or at the other end of the spectrum you can have people with shocking style and imbalances everywhere who never seem to get hurt. I guess my point is if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it  :Praying:

#8 Victory11

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 714 posts
  • Joined: 14-December 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Gold Coast, Queensland

Posted 06 June 2010 - 09:05 PM

View PostNeillS, on Jun 6 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

Depends. If he's having running injuries and pain, then yes. If he's been running this way for 10 years with no issues at all, why would you go and change it? How do you know he's a young runner? A runner can have perfect biomechanics and still be riddled with injury, or at the other end of the spectrum you can have people with shocking style and imbalances everywhere who never seem to get hurt. I guess my point is if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it  :Praying:
I probably should have mentioned i'm 16 and been running 1yr 3months :) and i don't know whether its related, but i get occasionally get pain below my knee that a physio put down to osgood schlatters.

Edited by Victory11, 06 June 2010 - 09:05 PM.


#9 Jimmy4990

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 389 posts
  • Joined: 13-May 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:The Oaks

Posted 06 June 2010 - 09:31 PM

View PostNeillS, on Jun 6 2010, 09:00 PM, said:

Depends. If he's having running injuries and pain, then yes. If he's been running this way for 10 years with no issues at all, why would you go and change it? How do you know he's a young runner? A runner can have perfect biomechanics and still be riddled with injury, or at the other end of the spectrum you can have people with shocking style and imbalances everywhere who never seem to get hurt. I guess my point is if it ain't broke, don't try to fix it  :Praying:
I agree totally with your conclusion & if it ain't broke don't fix it is a great saying. This is one that I also like. PreHab is better than Rehab. VictoryII is obviously concerned about these issues so I reckon some basic strength, symmetry & balance testing would be a good idea. Athletes of all types should work on both uni-lateral & bi-lateral strength & flexibility. I guess it also depends on Goals. A runner who wants to be as fast as he or she can be won't accept that one leg feels much stronger than the other. They will do something about it. My personal experiance is that speed is a combination of strength, power, balance, endurance & continuity of training in whatever order you like. I so much wish I addressed some of my structural problems when I was 16.
Thanks for reading
Jim

#10 BEN-HUR

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 777 posts
  • Joined: 08-June 06
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 07 June 2010 - 10:03 AM

It would be very wise to have structural &/or muscle imbalance issues assessed... particularly if they are contributing to unilateral difference in function & form. These unilateral/structural/muscle imbalance type issues does lead to some degree of biomechanical inefficiency to say the least, which will potentially affect performance (i.e. adverse energy expenditure during a race,  early onset muscle fatigue, loss of distance covered). Usually these unilateral/structural/muscle imbalance type issues will lead to one part of the body being exposed to more stress (i.e. torsional stress; adverse loading forces) which will then produce a weak link in the kinetic chain of events...

Posted Image

... this unilateral/structural/muscle imbalance type issue may not contribute to injury now... but may contribute to problems once one ups the mileage, does more speed work or gets older. All cases are different due to the many individual traits associated with the runner themselves as well as the degree of the unilateral/structural/muscle imbalance type issue. These variable factors determine when an athlete will meet their injury threshold i.e. for one runner it may be at 80km/week with two track workout sessions... for another it may be at 160km/week with one track workout session.

Just because there are no problems at this stage of one's training program/development does not mean that all is fine & that the unilateral/structural/muscle imbalance type issue is not having an effect of some degree i.e. on efficiency & thus performance... or contributing to a potential injury in the future i.e. as someone said earlier in this post: Steve Cram...

Posted Image

* Excessive lower limb rotation in Cram (328 - Bronze). Note the optimum foot orientation parallel to the path of movement in Seb Coe (326 - Gold) & Tom McKean (351 - Silver).

Cram's style of foot plant not only increases the risk of lower limb injuries (i.e. torsional stressors) but it has been estimated to also reduce his stride length by more than 1cm. At Cram's race pace & stride length, Cram was losing a little more than 50cm every 100m - which is quite a disadvantage at this degree of competition (particularly against the perfection of Coe!).

In short: Prevention is better than cure!

Edit reason: unintentionally deleted Coe/Cram image for editing purpose for website - replaced with newer version.

Edited by BEN-HUR, 09 June 2010 - 09:24 PM.


#11 PodRunner

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 809 posts
  • Joined: 28-May 04
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Sydney CBD, Bondi Junction

Posted 07 June 2010 - 11:48 AM

Hi Victory,

In addition to previous comments from Neil and Ben-Hur, definitely get assessed by a sports podiatrist or sports physiotherapist.

A leg length difference (functional/apparent or osseous/actual) can be a possible reason for your crossover and it seems to be missed often. If suspected, a leg length CT scan is the most accurate at measuring this. Best thing about this CT is its once in a lifetime and valuable even if no difference is detected.

A red flag for a possible LLD is a greater tibial varum angle from one leg, with the same foot externally rotating and pronating more. This can be natures way of cancelling out some of the longer legs height, as you normally get a pelvic shift towards the longer leg.

I ran for many years before self-diagnosing this (13mm osseous/actual) and it was missed by pods, physios, sports doctors and a chiro.

Of the patients I've suspected to have a LLD that have then had a CT done, 4 out of 5 have had greater than 5mm and plenty have 10mm or more. On some days as many a four patients will come in with problems arising from a LLD that hasn't been noticed before.

If it's a functional difference (usu twisted pelvis), you need to spend some time with a sports physio.

#12 TrackRunner

    1000-club gold-rated CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,013 posts
  • Joined: 21-December 08
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Brisbane-Queensland

Posted 07 June 2010 - 07:50 PM

I love Ben-Hur's post, best one i've seen on this website for a while.

#13 Victory11

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 714 posts
  • Joined: 14-December 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Gold Coast, Queensland

Posted 08 June 2010 - 07:17 PM

View PostTrackRunner, on Jun 7 2010, 07:50 PM, said:

I love Ben-Hur's post, best one i've seen on this website for a while.
I know aye. I definitely got a lot out of that one in particular. :Praying:

#14 Jimmy4990

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 389 posts
  • Joined: 13-May 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:The Oaks

Posted 08 June 2010 - 08:05 PM

View PostVictory11, on Jun 6 2010, 06:36 PM, said:

Hey, when I run my legs (my right leg more so) cross over the midline of my body quite significantly, and I was wondering if anyone knew what might be causing this? tightness? weakness? i have no idea aye.
I know its hard to say, but any advice would be very much appreciated on what i could try doing to correct this :Praying: i have tried making a conscious effort when running to not crossover, but that doesn't seem to help the slightest.

If it helps, i feel as though when i run, my right leg is very weak in that when it swings through, it isn't strong and feels like it isn't travelling straight, and then when i strike the ground it is quite unstable, more so than my left i believe.

Thanks
G'day Victory11  
Maybe get a trainer or strength coach to show you all the progressions required to achieve this exercise. It is a great unilateral exercise & once you can do the plyometric version on both legs their is a good chance your running efficiency will be greatly improved. Be Warned. It is a beast of an exercise & it will require much effort. Good things come to those who work hard though so give it your best shot.

#15 BEN-HUR

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 777 posts
  • Joined: 08-June 06
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Sydney

Posted 09 June 2010 - 09:15 PM

Hi TrackRunner & Victory11,

Correct/efficient movement is very important. It usually does not receive much consideration. I would say that the majority of runners out there do not think about the act of movement - they just go out & run. However, when we master the basics of movement we can then move more efficiently under greater stress i.e. towards the end of a race when fatigue starts to set in. It is at this stage of a race that a runner can either loose time or gain time on fellow competitors. On the other hand it is during fatigue stages of our training that inefficient movement can contribute to repetitive adverse forces directed to a part of the body which may then lead to injury. A good runner is a runner that is able to run relaxed at a fast speed whilst under fatigue. On the other hand again... a good runner is a runner that is able to offset (delay) the state of fatigue for as long as possible. To do this, we must run efficiently... that meaning - energy we put in must be utilised to moving forward & not wasted in alternative directions i.e. sideways (Steve Cram's lower limb in post # 10). Cram was plagued by injury over the final few years of his career... from memory it was the Calf/Achilles region (which doesn't surprise me when looking at the photo in post 10).

At your ages, the focus on efficient movement is very important for the development & education of those neural pathways which help govern an efficient gait via enhanced balance, proprioception, range of motion, strength & speed. As Jimmy4990 alluded to in the previous post... drills & plyometrics are a very effective way of developing the neural pathways & strength required to either overcome a gait related issue; an injury prone area or just become more efficient as a runner (particularly under fatiguing conditions).

In a nutshell; running related drills & plyometrics are exaggerated running movements done either fast or slow, to train a specific muscle group or joint region. It is a fast way of developing better technique & gait. Having said this, you must start slowly (gradually) if you have not engaged in this type of training before as it does put greater stress on certain parts of the body that the act of running alone will not do to the same extent.

The following are some points from coach Terrence Mahon. Terrence is the coach of Ryan Hall.

Quote

In this section we will go over the drills for “balance and proprioception.”  Basically, we need to learn how to walk correctly before we can run efficiently.  The drills that go into this category are ones that focus on slow twitch muscle fibers and are typically done as walking or standing drills.  The goals of these exercises are to recruit the postural muscles to hold us in good form when we walk or run.  We are looking for positions of movement whether it is forward, backward or sideways that challenges us to hold the head high, keep the shoulders down and back and focus on keeping the hips in line with the knees and ankles at push off.  Creating good balance while standing or in slow motion is a great precursor for balance when moving fast.

For starters: Drills...

Quote

Try these balance drills and see how good you are at maintain good posture while moving:

A Walk – a walk with exaggerated knee height

B Walk – same as the “A walk” but finishes off with a kick out of the lower leg once the knee hits maximal height

Backwards Walk – just as it sounds, walk backwards landing on the toe and rocking back to the hell with each step.  Keep your head up!

Lateral Walk – walking sideways in a straight line, first walk to the right, then back to the left.  Keep your eyes looking at the horizon not at your feet.

Marching in Place – using high knees like the walks, but landing back in the same position.  Try to hold the position at the top for 2-3seconds before dropping the leg back down and alternating to the next one.

Standing On One Leg Balance – hold a strong upright position as you lift one leg off the ground and hold for 30 seconds.  For increased balance and proprioception challenges do these barefoot and then try closing one eye, the other eye or both and see if you can maintain the same balance as with your eyes open and/ or shoes on.

Reason why:

Quote

The reason these balance drills are important is that you have only .01 of a second to activate the muscles and find balance when your foot hits the ground.  Waking up these muscles with drills while in a low impact stance is a great way to improve coordination, decrease chances of injury and improve overall running performance by getting the body in the right position to use the right muscles for the job.  We typically start with 1-2 sets of 15-20m in distance for all of these exercises when starting someone new on the program.  Mastery must be attained with these basic drills before moving on to more ballistic leg movements such as sprinting or plyometrics.

Logic:

Quote

Overall we are looking for a better “feel” as to where the body is in space and how each limb is moving in relation to one another. The greater the kinesthetic awareness becomes, the easier it is to feel good posture when moving at faster speeds.  Start slow and be prepared to be humbled.  These drills are simple, but not so easy to perfect.  Our nervous systems are geniuses at learning how to move around tightness and weak spots in the body to get us from A to B.  However, once we slow down and see how we are getting there, the gig is up and the reality comes to light.  Take your time and try these drills for no more than 5-10 minutes per day at first to build better balance.


#16 Jimmy4990

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 389 posts
  • Joined: 13-May 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:The Oaks

Posted 09 June 2010 - 09:43 PM

Basically, we need to learn how to walk correctly before we can run efficiently.
Posted by Ben Hur. Probably the most important piece of info I have read today

#17 wunforfun

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 11-March 04
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 11 June 2010 - 01:22 PM

Does anyone know of any places or people in Melbourne that do gait analysis focussing on more than just the lower limbs?

It seems the analysis of Cram is vital information that could have affected is performance/ injury threshold.

It would be great to know of anywhere where this sort of analysis can be done to prevent injury/ maximise efficiency. :rolleyes:

#18 NeillS

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 275 posts
  • Joined: 04-May 10
  • Location:North Melbourne

Posted 11 June 2010 - 07:16 PM

any competent sports physiotherapist should be able to help. Key word there is "competent".

#19 fastfinisher

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 19 posts
  • Joined: 26-February 10
  • Sex:Female
  • Location:Perth WA

Posted 12 June 2010 - 11:21 PM

victory11, i know how you feel!

everything said about leg length difference is pretty important. when i run, it feels like i'm running on my left leg and my right leg is helping me along, sounds similar to you.

my legs were crossing over, with my knees hitting in the middle each stride. i went to see a podiatrist who fitted me into orthotics. because my orthotics lift my arches, that straightens my knees up and makes me run straighter..pretty much solving the problem.

not sure if your case is the same but worth getting it checked out by a professional if you want to keep running uninjured :rolleyes:

FF

#20 Leofisio

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 840 posts
  • Joined: 31-March 08
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:São Paulo - Brazil

Posted 13 June 2010 - 02:49 AM

Great posts from Podrunner and Ben-Hur... well done!

Leo

#21 LongDistancePictures

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 481 posts
  • Joined: 04-February 09
  • Sex:Female
  • Location:Tamborine Mountain, Qld.

Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:47 AM

Thanks very much for this discussion - I've learnt a great deal.

Cheers
Sue