15 replies to this topic

[Jimmy4990]

 polar.jpg   51.3K   46 downloads
1k intervals completed in identical conditions on a treadmill. Gel containing Caffeine taken 33 minutes into this workout. Notice the lower HR for the exact same performance during the last 2 reps. I would have thought my HR would be climbing as fatigue starts to set. Reading posts contained in this forum section it is apparent that some think you need to be running marathons to benefit from these sticky little suckers. It seems that I receive benefit during much shorter versions. Is it "security blanket" or is it concentration enhancement & improved effeciency as a result of the stimulants. When I am running hard I get a sick feeling that tells me it is time to back off. If I get my gels down prior to this feeling arriving I am able to "hang in there" much better. Maybe an espresso & muffin would have the same effect but I have enough trouble getting these things down. I thought caffeine was supposed to increase HR, more questions asked than answered I know. Would love to know if anyone else has had similar experience
I know that everybody has good/bad days & sometimes no matter what we do our performance is up/down. I have been experimenting with pre & mid run ingestion of gels for about 18 months now & I will have 3 in my race bag for next Sundays 12k Bay to Bay @ WoyWoy . Can't Wait . Currently experimenting with mixing my gels in my fuelbelt bottles. So Far So Good.

[sunny1]

 Jimmy4990, on Jun 14 2010, 09:45 AM, said:

polar.jpg
1k intervals completed in identical conditions on a treadmill. Gel containing Caffeine taken 33 minutes into this workout. Notice the lower HR for the exact same performance during the last 2 reps. I would have thought my HR would be climbing as fatigue starts to set. Reading posts contained in this forum section it is apparent that some think you need to be running marathons to benefit from these sticky little suckers. It seems that I receive benefit during much shorter versions. Is it "security blanket" or is it concentration enhancement & improved effeciency as a result of the stimulants. When I am running hard I get a sick feeling that tells me it is time to back off. If I get my gels down prior to this feeling arriving I am able to "hang in there" much better. Maybe an espresso & muffin would have the same effect but I have enough trouble getting these things down. I thought caffeine was supposed to increase HR, more questions asked than answered I know. Would love to know if anyone else has had similar experience
I know that everybody has good/bad days & sometimes no matter what we do our performance is up/down. I have been experimenting with pre & mid run ingestion of gels for about 18 months now & I will have 3 in my race bag for next Sundays 12k Bay to Bay @ WoyWoy . Can't Wait . Currently experimenting with mixing my gels in my fuelbelt bottles. So Far So Good.

Three for 12km????!

[Jimmy4990]

 sunny1, on Jun 14 2010, 03:28 PM, said:

Three for 12km????!

Yep.    1 15/20min before start & two in the bottles for the trip. I know this is unconventional but I find they keep my "gut" happy at high intensity & I guess I am just wondering if anyone else uses this or any other method to keep the pace on. Normally when racing my lungs & limbs are strong enough. It is always "sick" feeling that makes me want to slow. As mentioned previously an energy gel seems to help. Is it possible that even on a shorter trip, these quickly delivered stimulants & carbs compliment the energy delivery to my muscles that is already taking place????? I have noticed that some folks think there are rules & guidelines that MUST be followed with running nutrition & they are very quick to cut people with varying opinions down. . Most people know the RULES as they are published over & over & over again in running magazines. Just trying to encourage others who have "different" methods to come forward & share them. I for one would be interested

[Bellthorpe]

Cut people down?

Disagreeing with you is not trying to cut you down. It's disagreeing with you.

I disagree with you. I think that taking gels for anything shorter than a run of (say) two hours is a waste of time.

[PhilN]

Hey jimmy,
   Tend to agree with Belthorpe on Gels, you should have plenty of glycogen  from your dinner the night before for 12ks also on Caffeine depending on your weight you will probably need about 300mgs of caffeine in order to gain any benefit, most gels have a lot less (Gu it is about 20 - 40mg per shot). I think there is the odd one that may have 100mg of caffeine but not sure . Also it will take about an hour to reach the peak level in the bloodstream. I suspect you would be finished your 12k by then.
   Like anything in running if it works for you go for it, the mind is a very important tool in running your best

Edited by PhilN, 14 June 2010 - 09:53 PM.

[sunny1]

GU energy gel contain 20 milligrams of caffeine (per packet). http://www.energyfie...t/gu-energy-gel

That is not much caffeine ... considering 3x Gu = 60mg Caffeine = $9 (approx) = a lot of money to spend for a fast 12km, in my opinion!


PS: Hoping for a very very fast time for you. Sincerely, S1

Edited by sunny1, 15 June 2010 - 10:58 AM.

[chilliman]

 sunny1, on Jun 15 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

GU energy gel contain 20 milligrams of caffeine (per packet).

No Doze tab 100mg, (extra strength 200) and choc coated beans 5-20mg depending on the bean.
At what point is this classed as a "drug assisted" time though ?

jimmy4990 said:

It is always "sick" feeling that makes me want to slow.

I'd be more concerned what else is / or has been in your stomach up until your run for high intensity short stuff like a 12k.
Many years ago I had similar issues until I cut out any fats or dairy prior to a higher intensity run.

How long before you run are you eating, and what are you eating ?

[Jimmy4990]

 chilliman, on Jun 15 2010, 12:58 PM, said:

No Doze tab 100mg, (extra strength 200) and choc coated beans 5-20mg depending on the bean.
At what point is this classed as a "drug assisted" time though ?


I'd be more concerned what else is / or has been in your stomach up until your run for high intensity short stuff like a 12k.
Many years ago I had similar issues until I cut out any fats or dairy prior to a higher intensity run.

How long before you run are you eating, and what are you eating ?

Hey Chiliman,
We eat pretty well all year round & I do try to clean things right up prior to racing. Chocolate is my weakness but I do that in moderation. Say 6 Squares a day average. Low fat diet, lean meats, lots fruit & veg etc etc. I noticed you mention dairy. I am curious as we eat/drink gallons of fresh natural yoghurt around here. My wife makes it & I mix it with muesli, blueberrys & walnuts. What is your info on dairy. I can't run on last nights dinner. I get up early for 2 x toast with a coffee. I generally don't eat any meat for dinner leading up to hard sessions & races. Cheers.

[undercover brother]

so if you find out something you are doing to go quicker is placebo effect.
does it stop working?

[Jimmy4990]

 undercover brother, on Jun 15 2010, 04:20 PM, said:

so if you find out something you are doing to go quicker is placebo effect.
does it stop working?

lol.......Placebo has not been conceded yet undercover. Everybody needs there Carb's right!!! Unconventional is the only concession made so far

[Jimmy4990]

 sunny1, on Jun 15 2010, 10:56 AM, said:

GU energy gel contain 20 milligrams of caffeine (per packet). http://www.energyfie...t/gu-energy-gel

That is not much caffeine ... considering 3x Gu = 60mg Caffeine = $9 (approx) = a lot of money to spend for a fast 12km, in my opinion!


PS: Hoping for a very very fast time for you. Sincerely, S1

Thanks for your best wishes S1. Appreciate. We live SthWst Sydney so for this run we have Fuel, accommadation, entry, Babysitter. Not to mention dinner & the anniversary gifts. The cost of the gels is the least of my worries. YES this is our weekend away for our anniversary . Many think that bizzare also. Especially non runners... They never understand.

[PhilN]

 Jimmy4990, on Jun 15 2010, 09:03 PM, said:

lol.......Placebo has not been conceded yet undercover. Everybody needs there Carb's right!!! Unconventional is the only concession made so far

Hey Jimmy,
   Do not want to knocking your idea but this is far from unconventional I have seen many runners starting out taking a stack of gels for short runs thinking this is giving them a boost and then after a bit of experience find out they wasted a lot of money. Putting more petrol in the tank will not make the car go faster only further

As a suggestion in your next race, have a nice light breakfast, leave the gels behind and see how you go, the only way to get your best is to try different things.  If you run poorly knock yourself out with the gels. But at $3 a shot that is a very expensive 12k race really they are not offering you any more than placebo

Would love to know how you go in your next race without gels

[Jimmy4990]

Thanks Phil, I appreciate what you say & I don't disagree with you. I did'nt just start using them because it seemed like a good idea. It started with cycling. At about 90/100 minutes I would start feeling the tank getting low. Like most I learned the hard way & as a result I would set my watch for 65 min & at the next opourtunity I will down a banana, 2 muesli bars & on my way. I hope you understand what I mean, when I say I get a similar empty feeling which causes nausea when I run. With cycling it creeps up on me & I can normally deal with it but with running it hits me like a truck. Normally somewhere between 6 & 8 k's. Experimentation led me to liquid carb's & I am not claiming that I can run faster it just seems to me, that the "need to slow nausea" stays away for longer. Anyways I don't pretend to understand all these things & the only reason I even try to justify using them is because I got attacked for mentioning it. Quote "With all due respect but you are wrong". My 10k race pace has improved from 5.06 to 3.46 in 18mnths & improve is now getting really tough. Thought this might be a good place to find some tips other than those already published in running mags. So far so good. Thanks for your advice. Cheers Jim

[sunny1]

 Jimmy4990, on Jun 14 2010, 09:45 AM, said:

polar.jpg
1k intervals completed in identical conditions on a treadmill. Gel containing Caffeine taken 33 minutes into this workout. Notice the lower HR for the exact same performance during the last 2 reps. I would have thought my HR would be climbing as fatigue starts to set. Reading posts contained in this forum section it is apparent that some think you need to be running marathons to benefit from these sticky little suckers. It seems that I receive benefit during much shorter versions. Is it "security blanket" or is it concentration enhancement & improved effeciency as a result of the stimulants. When I am running hard I get a sick feeling that tells me it is time to back off. If I get my gels down prior to this feeling arriving I am able to "hang in there" much better. Maybe an espresso & muffin would have the same effect but I have enough trouble getting these things down. I thought caffeine was supposed to increase HR, more questions asked than answered I know. Would love to know if anyone else has had similar experience
I know that everybody has good/bad days & sometimes no matter what we do our performance is up/down. I have been experimenting with pre & mid run ingestion of gels for about 18 months now & I will have 3 in my race bag for next Sundays 12k Bay to Bay @ WoyWoy . Can't Wait . Currently experimenting with mixing my gels in my fuelbelt bottles. So Far So Good.

The emphasis here seemed to me to be on the effect of caffeine.

Gu/gel = 20mg caffeine = $3.50
cup of coffee = resumed that a regular cup of coffee contains 100mg of caffeine but it may range between 40 and 176 mg and the mean is closer to 85mg = $3.00 (much less if made at home!)
Red Bull = 80mg caffeine = $3.99

Looks like there would be more caffeine or stimulant if you had iced coffee (black) in your fuelbelt bottles.

But is the issue carbs? "Experimentation led me to liquid carb's".

I actually wondered if your first post was a sales pitch - sorry! But there have been many of those here, disguised as a 'runner' with a 'new idea'.

I haven't been able to find out so much information about carbs in gus.  



PS. I actually think that everybody here has been quite polite to you. I can't find the quote, in anybody else's post saying "With all due respect but you are wrong", and neither can I see where someone cut you down or attacked what you have said.

Edited by sunny1, 15 June 2010 - 10:58 PM.

[FreeDickland]

Agree wholeheartedly with Sunny - if it ain't the caffeine highly unlikely it is the sugar in the gels - my initial reaction was to reply - why don' t you try eating some compression tights and rubbing the gels on your legs

Edited by FreeDickland, 16 June 2010 - 08:26 AM.

[ninjette]

 sunny1, on Jun 15 2010, 10:52 PM, said:

The emphasis here seemed to me to be on the effect of caffeine.

Gu/gel = 20mg caffeine = $3.50
cup of coffee = resumed that a regular cup of coffee contains 100mg of caffeine but it may range between 40 and 176 mg and the mean is closer to 85mg = $3.00 (much less if made at home!)
Red Bull = 80mg caffeine = $3.99

Looks like there would be more caffeine or stimulant if you had iced coffee (black) in your fuelbelt bottles.

For that matter, there's a 'Maximum CLA' capsule sold by a vitamin store that claims to contain 60mg caffeine per capsule (they recommend taking 3 per serve). At around $1 per capsule, for a total cost of $3, you could be way ahead (180mg) of the caffeine content of a Gu....