14 replies to this topic

[bones]

I have asthma and recently did a course in Buteyko breathing. I have been told by the instructor (himself not a runner and not very fit from appearance) that it is quite possible to do Buteyko breathing and run. I've no doubt it is when you go very slowly, but no one I've spoken to believes this is possible when pushing at tempo, interval or race effort (or even running a reasonable pace up hill).
Does anyone know of someone who has had success in Buteyko breathing and running at effort?

[russell2pi]

That would be interesting to hear about given the claim that mouth breathing is a human adaptation to distance running.

[redbackrun]

last winter my asthma flared up badly (i'm sure from taking NSAIDS & haven't taken any since!). i found i could run a bit further breathing through my nose. only slow jogging though & any speed work was out of the question!

[bones]

Really interested in what you said, russell2pi. Do you have more details on this - e.g. reports that it comes from, etc. It makes a lot of sense.
redbackrun, I had exactly the same issue as you last year. I also think it may have been NSAIDs, but then we had a really cold spell in Perth and the cold dry air really flares up my asthma.
I suspect running fast and nose breathing is impossible, but I think the buteyko breathing is helpful (just some of their other ideas a bit odd!)

[russell2pi]

Bones, I have only read it in passing myself in various random magazine/net articles on the endurance running hypothesis. I'm not sure who put the idea forth first concerning mouth breathing, possibly Bernd Heinrich... have been meaning to track down his book Why We Run (and other original sources on the topic) but haven't got to it yet.

I don't necessarily believe in the hypothesis but it interests me greatly. I have been amazed at how easily running came to me taking it up in middle age. Not in terms of speed but endurance. As a teen I couldn't run further than 1-2 km so being able to run over an hour non-stop in my first weeks of taking it up as an adult was very surprising, and the fact that it felt fantastic was also a very welcome surprise. I'm also interested in the link to hunting as I also took up hunting as an adult as a conscious decision motivated by my perception of the nature of human beings and their roles in ecosystems as participants--- so to find these two interests of mine melded in one theory is highly intriguing to me. Unfortunately these ideas are probably very difficult to prove or disprove so we will probably continue to live in mystery...

[Bellthorpe]

I thought I'd read every excuse for hunting until now ...

[russell2pi]

Why would I need an excuse?

[Bellthorpe]

Why did you provide one? To salve your conscience perhaps? That's actually a good sign, in a way.

[russell2pi]

There is a difference between an excuse and a reason. Most things I do are done for a reason. Sometimes the activity and the reason are both relevant to a discussion. None of that means I have a guilty conscience to salve.

For instance, Heinrich's book wasn't called "Our Excuse for Running".

In my case, the reason is obviously of interest because it ties in very closely with the idea already being discussed - the endurance running hypothesis. i.e. the claim that humans are adapted for an ecosystem role involving hunting. Specifically,  persistence hunting - chasing down prey to exhaustion.

[russell2pi]

bones, on 18 May 2011 - 11:35 AM, said:

Really interested in what you said, russell2pi. Do you have more details on this - e.g. reports that it comes from, etc. It makes a lot of sense.

Ok... still waiting on Heinrich's book in the post but the main exposition of the idea in the scientific press appears to be:

Bramble & Lieberman 2004, Endurance running and the evolution of Homo, Nature, 432, 345.

Quote

Another derived feature of humans is the tendency for mouth breathing (but not panting) during strenuous activity. Nasal breathing, typical of apes, offers too much resistance within the relatively small human nasopharynx to support the high ventilatory demands of strenuous activities such as endurance running⁵⁹. Human distance runners are thus obligate mouth breathers, permitting higher airflow rates with less resistance and muscular effort; mouth breathing is also a more effective means of unloading excess heat during expiration.

[vat]

bones, on 17 May 2011 - 01:45 PM, said:

Does anyone know of someone who has had success in Buteyko breathing and running at effort?

With my narrow bridged, sinus-prone honker?  No chance!

We've done this topic a few times, the general consensus is to get the air into your body however you can, even your ears if need be.

[bones]

Thanks all. I agree getting air in is what matters - my question was can it be done at effort. I think from what i'm hearing that running at effort and nasal breathing isn't really possible. Thanks for your comments, and thanks for the paper link russell2pi; very interesting.

[Jaxta]

Heads up, this is a bit of a rant.

I must admit that when I went along to a Buteyko consultation, I came away thinking the whole thing was a con.

Not the concept, just the way that the people behind it are trying to push their message. Particularly concerning was that I went to the consultation hoping to find a cure for chronic sleep talking before my husband goes bananas. This was the reason I gave for making the appointment. At no time when I booked, did I tell the person that I was a runner.

Upon finding out that I was a runner, the person leading the consult immediately went down the performance improvement path with not a lot of data to back up their position. And refused to explain how Buteyko could help, if at all, my sleep talking, which was what I presented for.

This person said that Buteyko may help establish proper breathing patterns, and was perfectly suited to someone such as myself who runs 100k trail runs and that there was no reason at all I shouldn't be able to breathe through my nose for all aspects of my running from slower long runs, to efforts, hill repeats, speed work etc.

I agree that there may be merit in Buteyko assisting to establish regular breathing patterns for those who have difficulty in that area. I failed to find any data though, on Buteyko being an effective training tool for runners over 100km trail runs, hill repeats, speed work etc. And this person was not able to back up their claims with data gathered from athletic populations, performing at particular levels of output.

These are only my views and I am not medically trained, but to have spent a heap of money trying to find someone who can help me shut up during sleep, only to come away with someone giving me a spiel that the same product that MAY help my sleep talking WOULD also improve my running and spend 90% of the time at the consult on this aspect, had me decidedly grumpy.

Even two years after the appointment, I'm still grumpy......

[bones]

Jaxta, on 23 May 2011 - 01:28 PM, said:

Heads up, this is a bit of a rant.

I must admit that when I went along to a Buteyko consultation, I came away thinking the whole thing was a con.

Jaxta, that's exactly how I feel. I had a terrible time with asthma last year and spoke to my doctor about it. She suggested I might try Buteyko as it's had good results for some people (at no point did she suggest anything to do with running and Buteyko). I emailed someone, got an email back and left it at that. In the meantime, I saw a nutritional doctor and got a lot better. But every month I'd get an email from the Buteyko consultant trying to get me to do the course. Eventually he sent me an email, pretty much promising me he could make me a faster, better runner and help my asthma.

Honestly, it's a big con, from what I can tell (they also have the most frightening attitude to food - anti carbs and pro saturated fats!). The only runner he could find was a triathlete in the U.S., who told me Buteyko has changed her life, but she never pushes herself running. I've not found anyone who could. I'm pretty angry about it, too, and have to say I'd never recommend anyone do a course. The breathing exercises themselves are great, but honestly, you could do those through a DVD; it's not brain surgery!

[ben352]

I know it's an old thread but it's something that I feel pretty strongly about since I have asthma too. If you don't have asthma, don't bother reading this as it doesn't apply to you, move on.

I took the course in May 2010. I believe it was overpriced because the instructor pushed one message for 3 days, which was learn to breathe through your nose 24 hrs a day. He also taught some fairly time consuming breathing exercises and tricks to "unblock" your nose, but like I said, there was only one simple message. At the end he basically said, do the breathing exercises daily or exercise breathing through your nose. Obviously I chose the latter.

At first I started on a basic slow run/walk program because what most people believe, you can't get enough oxygen in only breathing through your nose. But over 3 or 4 months, my breathing adapted and I was able to run the Sydney City2surf (68 mins). Then the Sydney Half-Marathon (sub-100mins) in September and eventually the RunLikeCRazy marathon (sub 4 hours) that was held in December 2010.

Before taking the course I was using the asthma "puffer" medication everyday (sometimes multiple times which I know is pretty bad), and would carry it everywhere because 20mins into a run I might have an attack. By the time I did the marathon, I hadn't had an attack or even used the puffer in months and didn't even bother taking it to the event.

Now I know the OP mentioned tempo and interval training which I've never really done but I damn well pushed myself during those events and I was fine.

Changing my breathing reduced my asthma symptoms dramatically. If you have asthma and give it a try, I would be interested to hear how you go.