65 replies to this topic

[M12]

Are Physios a Waste of time?

I had been seeing my physio for nearly two years (maybe once a month, sometimes less) and had never really got over my injury problems. He loved his dry needling which in theory, it probably works. But we never got on top of anything. About two months ago I got sick of going there to be told nothing new, to take things easy, keep resting, dont race, wear orthodics (that I ditched anyway), maybe we need an MRI? I stopped going to the physio and I have never felt better. I can now walk (let alone run) without feeling like my leg is about to snap in half with each step. As a result I ran my biggest month since March 2009 (which is when I originally got injured), and I feel really good. I ran 15k on the weekend for the first time since December 2009. I feel like I am better prepared now than when I ran a marathon in 2008.

I started questioning the whole Physio industry. Physios are great at getting people up for a race - if you keep coming back to see them every day/week/month. It's great for them. Its about $65+ for a normal consultation, more for first time. They make alot of money out of injured runners. But do they tell you everything in one go? Probably not, if they can get more sessions out of you, they'll tell you more next week. Even in that consultation they'll give you nothing, they might throw ice on you or a heat pack, go see another person, come back take it off and say 'we'll check up on you next week' as a hint to book another session.


So are physios a waste of time? In my experience, yes. Is your experience the same?

[undercover brother]

no.
no.

[SMCRoadRaceSeries]

What injury did you have? You left out an important fact.

Their efficacy is based on the injury type. 'Simple' or usual running injuries such as achilles, ITB etc they probably help, more so invery early stages- def not a two yr thing- but then many 'self treat' successfully for those. Things such as sciatica, referred pain etc (from personal exp) their clue is as good as anyone's

[Eagle]

I think they are like some things in life. It depends on how you use them/it as to whether they are good/bad, useful or not useful. Cars in themselves are useful but how some people use them they are also dangerous.

I have gone to a physio many times to treat a defined injury. Gone for a few visits, improved and stopped.

I question going to one regualarly over 2 years. If an injury was being treated it seems that that the affect might have been treated not the cause. Perhaps you should have been looking for other advice and professionals. I don't think you describe the injury or the treatement other than dry needles.

It is good for you that without treatement you can now run but with monthly treatment you could not. So does that suggest the treatment was actaully causing you to not run pain free?

My experince is that used the right way they are very useful. It is a matter a dinding one with the correct experience and the proper aim for your treatment.

[rohan]

Physios seem useless at soft tissue injuries.  
Those seem to heal at the same rate whether you see a physio or not.

They can do great things for back pain through getting the verterbrae moving against each other.

[chrisso]

Think I went 3 or 4 times for some knee tracking issue when I first started running. Then she said I didn't need to go anymore. I thought I might have had to go a couple more times. Haven't had that problem since. She certainly didn't seem interested in continually making money from me.

[M12]

I originally had calf problems. That was MAr/Apr 09, never really got over that. In Oct 09, I developed medialtibial stress syndrome that was still present in scans in Jan/Feb 10. From about July last year I had been running, but kept getting frustrated with not being to run what I wanted to. I was able to run fine for about 5 weeks but the 6th week was always the worst. The whole time until Apr this year, if I pressed my fingers into the area along the bone where the soleus attaches, I could feel it (i could feel the pain, but could feel it with my fingers).

I was referred to sports doctor (an expensive one that is apparently so good he has worked with top level athletes) who sent me for (expensive) nuclear bone scans. Which told us nothing new, basically said that there were 'hot spots'. I already knew that. Most of the treatment my physio had used was dry needling and deep tissue massaging to get into the area and I suppose to get new blood moving to the area.

Perhaps I should have stopped bothering to go long ago. I guess I know a lot more now than I did back when I thought going to the physio was a good thing and was helping.

[AndyP]

I can only handle so much of the "just one more treatment session" routine.

[ioanna]

The physio was pretty useful when I had ITBS. She told me what I had to do to deal with it on my own and I only had to go for a couple of visits. Maybe you just happened upon a really bad physio?

[Ponytail]

My physio has heaps of patients so I don't think he tells me I need another appointment if I don't.  I am currently seeing my physio for whatever my injury is (so far undefined by the physio) but am thinking of switching to a chiro who can at least do x-rays if need be...my physio seems to have a pretty narrow view of things and I'm not quite sure he's onto anything this time.

I guess, like others have said, it probably depends what the problem is.  My previous calf and hamstring strains were all definitely helped with the aid of my physio.

[B+]

M12, on 01 June 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Are Physios a Waste of time?

I had been seeing my physio for nearly two years (maybe once a month, sometimes less) and had never really got over my injury problems. He loved his dry needling which in theory, it probably works. But we never got on top of anything. About two months ago I got sick of going there to be told nothing new, to take things easy, keep resting, dont race, wear orthodics (that I ditched anyway), maybe we need an MRI? I stopped going to the physio and I have never felt better. I can now walk (let alone run) without feeling like my leg is about to snap in half with each step. As a result I ran my biggest month since March 2009 (which is when I originally got injured), and I feel really good. I ran 15k on the weekend for the first time since December 2009. I feel like I am better prepared now than when I ran a marathon in 2008.

I started questioning the whole Physio industry. Physios are great at getting people up for a race - if you keep coming back to see them every day/week/month. It's great for them. Its about $65+ for a normal consultation, more for first time. They make alot of money out of injured runners. But do they tell you everything in one go? Probably not, if they can get more sessions out of you, they'll tell you more next week. Even in that consultation they'll give you nothing, they might throw ice on you or a heat pack, go see another person, come back take it off and say 'we'll check up on you next week' as a hint to book another session.


So are physios a waste of time? In my experience, yes. Is your experience the same?

Your Physio may have been a waste of time for you, but not all physios are a waste of time.
In many cases the patient is the waste of time........won't do the rehab work as requested, keep training when they shouldn't, stop doing preventitive work because it's boring...etc etc

My philosphy is simple, if your not getting the results you would expect seek a 2nd or 3rd opinion and each case listen to what your being told.

Train safe

[WetWeek]

I think I must have one of trhe "good" physios.  So far he's resolved all my issues (bar one) within two or three visits.  So far he's fixed: Tibial compartment syndrome, various calf strains, ongoing achilles tendonitis (almost better now after 12 months), and ITB pain.

I go to him for diagnosis; he explains what has happened and how to fix it; I do the prescribed exercises and follow his recomendations for getting back into the running; I then go for a follow-up so he can check the issue is sorted.  So far that has taken 3 visits at most for each issue.  

Sounds like the OP's particular physio is the issue, not physios in general.

[Action]

Some are worth their weight in gold, others resemble boat anchors - the same as practitioners in any other profession.

I have two that I consult as needed.  I wouldn't be running without them.  You should have got that 2nd or 3rd opinion.

[M12]

Well next time anything happens, I've got a number for a different physio who my mate sees. I can see in the results that it's worked for him.

Maybe I just had an ordinary physio? Perhaps I wasn't smart enough to realise earlier that he's padding out sessions?

I am sure there are some that are quite useful. But I guess, mine just kept telling me the same thing.

He insisted I wear orthodics which I found made things worse, so I ditched them early last year.

[Bellthorpe]

ponytail, on 01 June 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

My physio has heaps of patients so I don't think he tells me I need another appointment if I don't.  I am currently seeing my physio for whatever my injury is (so far undefined by the physio) but am thinking of switching to a chiro who can at least do x-rays if need be...my physio seems to have a pretty narrow view of things and I'm not quite sure he's onto anything this time.

My God. Have you done your research on chiropractic? Perhaps you also need some homoeopathic elixirs.

[WetWeek]

Personally I'd go the witch doctor route....

[rohan]

Bellthorpe, on 01 June 2011 - 02:17 PM, said:

My God. Have you done your research on chiropractic?

I have a back complaint that surfaces every couple of years.  One time I could not get a physio appointment.  Spoke to  chiropractor. Asked what they'd do. Same treatment as from physio.  It worked.  Enter with pain on a scale of 8. Leave with pain on a scale of 2.

I went knowing the rep that chiropractors have, but not every treatment they have in their book is going to be a dud.

[vat]

What Action said.

Had a couple in Sydney who were okay (plus a 'witchdoctor' most in inner western Sydney would be familiar with!), but have got a very good guy here in Brisbane who I'm fortunate enough to cycle with - very much of the school of getting you 80% of the way there and giving you the tools to finish the job (stretching and the like).  I've had a couple of occasions where he's said I was right to go with something and I thought I might have been a session or two short of where I wanted, but doing the 'homework' he's assigned me it's worked out well.

He very quickly zeroed in on my OP stemming from a back issue and with his work I've been able to get to running regularly again, and to be honest after one of the harder five days of running and cycling training in a row I've done in a long time the back and hip are the best they've been in ages.  Helps that his off-sider's a pretty decent track runner, too, and they have an excellent resident masseuse.

With their guidance I've been able to build a good stretching and core routine that I think has made a massive difference to me.

In some instances, people who don't get results from physio don't do their exercises at home - a guy I worked with back in Sydney was a classic for that.  Mmind you, this applies less in the running community as we're typically motivated to do whatever we have to so we can get back on the road!

If you're not happy with them, go somewhere else.

[bones]

rohan, on 01 June 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

I have a back complaint that surfaces every couple of years.  One time I could not get a physio appointment.  Spoke to  chiropractor. Asked what they'd do. Same treatment as from physio.  It worked.  Enter with pain on a scale of 8. Leave with pain on a scale of 2.

I went knowing the rep that chiropractors have, but not every treatment they have in their book is going to be a dud.

I'm with you Rohan. I spent a lot of time in pain as a child from severe neck and shoulder pain. Went to my first chiro at age 19 and he changed my life for the better. They don't cure disease - I've never met a good one who would claim to - but they do help alleviate back and neck pain.

[Ayla2010]

Mine has been brilliant. Means I can now run again, free from pain. He also does accupuncture. I saw another Physio before who didn't solve my issue.

[run2work]

gulp.

[Ponytail]

I'm gathering from some replies to this that the evil chiro's are seen as some kind of sharmans....?????

[undercover brother]

ponytail, on 01 June 2011 - 12:04 PM, said:

My physio has heaps of patients so I don't think he tells me I need another appointment if I don't.  I am currently seeing my physio for whatever my injury is (so far undefined by the physio) but am thinking of switching to a chiro who can at least do x-rays if need be...my physio seems to have a pretty narrow view of things and I'm not quite sure he's onto anything this time.

just a few quick comments...
1. xrays for non traumatic sports injuries have very limited use
2. having said this physios CAN order stuff even MRIs at some locations its just they wont be rebated on medicare. and many certainly have a habit of encouraging GPs or sports med to do this side of thing for them. guess it comes to scope of practice etc... my physio is excellent and i have certainly brought MRI scans for him to review (with report) and give an opinion on. not sure if resident CR physios wish to comment further. this is the situation in brissie at least.
3. without getting into the whole chiro v physio thing i would think most physios would be seen as having a broader sports med knowledge than chiros. i wouldnt go and see a chiro with a sore knee as an example. well i wouldn't see them for anything but lets not go there...

Edited by undercover brother, 01 June 2011 - 11:01 PM.

[russell2pi]

just be careful with chiros and osteos doing spinal manipulations. I had occasional neck pain for years and used to go see an osteo to get them to "crack" it, which always seemed to do the trick. (However, just the pre-manipulation massage may have worked, or just doing nothing may also have worked-don't know.)  

One time it did not work and the pain in the next few days was extremely severe. (10 mins of agony just to be able to haul myself out of bed.) Decided to try a GP. He fobbed me off with nurofen (WTF! I was already taking it along with panadeine extra which didn't even take the edge off). Went to another GP for a second opinion. This one ordered an MRI and diagnosed herniated disc. He said he was very surprised to see it because in a patient my age it is nearly always caused by major trauma such as a car accident etc.

The only major trauma I can think of is the osteo spinal manipulations.  I think they have the potential to do more harm than good.

[Action]

ponytail, on 01 June 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

I'm gathering from some replies to this that the evil chiro's are seen as some kind of sharmans....?????

I think the majority of those that question the efficacy of chiros and osteos just want to see some peer reviewed research that indicates that their work does more than any placebo.  There isn't any independent research.  The only stuff that gets put up as proof is from the chiro / osteo associations, so not exactly independent opinions.  

I used to go to a chiro regularly. A really nice bloke, but for various reasons stopped going and nothing much changed. So now massage and physio keep me on track (literally).

So, not evil, but not proven to be any better than a cup of tea and a lie down.

[iRonnie]

I have been to four different physios for four diferent injuries in thirty years. One was work injury to my back. The physio hopped on the bed with me and put both her hands in the middle of my shoulders and jumped off (more time off work). Stay away.

The next one was running related.  He suggested I strap ice to my knee while I ran. Hobble away. Never go back.

Third one was for my hip. Deep, really deep, massage had me pain free(after a lot of pain).  He also instructed me to do certain exercises.  Great work.  He moved away.

Fourth one helped a lot when I hurt my back last year.  He instructed me to do certain strength exercises and stretches and helped to strengthen and loosen the muscles around my back. He also did some massage.  I also downloaded a bunch of back exercises and stretches off the net.  He went through these with me and ticked the ones that were good for my problem and crossed off those that might do more harm than good.  He was great. I saw physio three twice and physio four three times.  All visits were well worth the expense.

I have considered chiro.  At the Gold Coast Marathon last year I even got a referral from the doctor? at the chiroprator's exhibit( My wife was sick of my whinging about not being able to race hard as I wanted to). The tester there found that i had 5kg more pressure in my left leg than my right.  The tester did squeeze my right shoulder for some unknown reason when taking the measurement(perhaps causing a weight shift). Having said that, my left leg is longer than my right leg...so still considering.

I also saw two podiatrists.  Neither helped. One recommended a neutral shoe and suggested Brooks Glycerine which are, for me, gumboots. The other said I needed shoes with mild support. He suggested a type of Mizuno. They were too high in the heel for me.
These shoes might be good for other runners but for me they were bad news.

So, for me at least, it is case of two good physios out of four. I think it best to shop around before writing off all physios or other medical practitioners.

Edited by iRonnie, 02 June 2011 - 01:18 PM.

[shark]

Physios are great - just not all of them.  I have been to the same physio for 20+ years - not a "running" physio but a guy that knows me well.  Never go twice for the same injury - see him 2-3 times a year when needed.  Most times I know the problem but want him to confirm diagnosis, ultrasound, and suggest exercises.  Sometimes he goes "deep" for ITB etc which really helps.

On the rare occasions when I think he is out of his league, I go to a top sports doc.

My opinion is that chiros do little to help runners.  Close running mates differ on that.

s

[undercover brother]

Action, on 02 June 2011 - 12:07 PM, said:

I think the majority of those that question the efficacy of chiros and osteos just want to see some peer reviewed research that indicates that their work does more than any placebo.  There isn't any independent research.  The only stuff that gets put up as proof is from the chiro / osteo associations, so not exactly independent opinions.  ...So, not evil, but not proven to be any better than a cup of tea and a lie down.

if chiros believed in evidence based medicine they would not exist.
they would disband themselves as a professional organisation and reform as something else eg. musculoskeletal therapist who will give you a massage but doesnt really believe in subluxations or that back manipulation in a child will cure asthma/bronchiolitis.

[chrisso]

If you want a good overview of the issues surrounding Chiropractic have read of this

NCAHF Position Paper on Chiropractic

In particular this section:

Hazardous Practices
Chiropractic's lack of science has led it to violate the basic Hippocratic principle of "first of all, do no harm."  The conviction held by chiropractic true-believers that every spine will benefit from an adjustment causes them to manipulate spines inappropriately.(23,24)  Among the concerns about chiropractic manipulation is the widespread use of the explosive "dynamic thrust" which takes the patient by surprise, as opposed to more conservative techniques.  This maneuver has a greater potential for inflicting injury.
The practice of greatest concern is the rotary neck movement (sometimes called "Vaster cervical'' or "rotary break"). This type of manipulation has led to trauma (25-27), paralysis (28,29), strokes (30,31), and death (32-33) among patents.  Even chiropractic's legal advisors have warned against its use.(34)

The overuse of x-ray by chiropractors poses potential patient harm.  Of primary concern is the 24' x 36' full spine x-ray. This technique exposes patients to a substantial amount of radiation. (35,38)  Exposing the body trunk to x-rays can have serious long-range consequences (36-37) and should be avoided.   Further, according to NCAHF's chiropractic advisors, such radiographs have little or no diagnostic value.

[Delirious]

undercover brother, on 02 June 2011 - 02:44 PM, said:

or that back manipulation in a child will cure asthma/bronchiolitis.

...or Type 1 diabetes

[iRonnie]

So do all chiropractor's really "believe in subluxations or that back manipulation in a child will cure asthma/bronchiolitis"?

But can a chiropractor help a patient with specific mechanical back problems with their use of back manipulation or not?

And if sublaxation is nonsense why does one lose the abilty to say lift their leg if a nerve gets caught?  Why does one get pins and needles in the extremities if the nerves in the vertabrae don't affect other areas of the body?

And would it better to seek help from someone trained specifically in dealing with back issues or a physio who has more general knowledge. Please try to include an explanation of any opinion. Yes, no answers aren't helpful and can reek of smart -arseness.

I am wary of back cracking ("correcting sublaxations") but my untrained eye can't see what is wrong with the concept of sublaxation itself. Is all the information in the website link below rubbish or not?.

http://www.echiropra...subluxation.htm

Below is the intro. It goes into more detail on the website.

Quote

In simplest terms, a subluxation (a.k.a. Vertebral Subluxation) is when one or more of the bones of your spine (vertebrae) move out of position and create pressure on, or irritate spinal nerves. Spinal nerves are the nerves that come out from between each of the bones in your spine. This pressure or irritation on the nerves then causes those nerves to malfunction and interfere with the signals traveling over those nerves.

How does this affect you?  Your nervous system controls and coordinates all the functions of your body. If you interfere with the signals traveling over nerves, parts of your body will not get the proper nerve messages and will not be able to function at 100% of their innate abilities. In other words, some part of your body will not be working properly.

It is the responsibility of the Doctor of Chiropractic to locate subluxations, and reduce or correct them. This is done through a series of chiropractic adjustments specifically designed to correct the vertebral subluxations in your spine. Chiropractors are the only professionals who undergo years of training to be the experts at correcting subluxations.

Edited by iRonnie, 02 June 2011 - 05:00 PM.

[orlando]

I've never found physios to be a waste of time, but then, my experiences have been very different from yours. I've always been given a diagnosis and therapy has included a clear management plan, outlining when to rest if needed, remedial exercises, and a graded return to running.  Once the problem was fixed, there was no need for ongoing appointments.
Like all professions, there are good ones and bad ones and it's not really fair to dismiss the whole industry on the basis of one bad experience. To be honest, I'm not really sure why you kept going back once a month for two years if it wasn't getting you anywhere.

Edited by orlando, 02 June 2011 - 05:25 PM.

[Bellthorpe]

iRonnie, the trouble is, no-one except chiropractors can see 'subluxations'. Here's one article that discusses the subject, and reference to another paper that posits that the manipulative techniques involved simply won't work.

If those pages, a spin-off from quackwatch, seem too biased, here's a more middle of the road article that suggests that chiropractors can do some good with manipulation, but that the notion of subluxations is nonsense. I strongly recommend you read the paper cited by Chrisso above. Rather than sit down to read the whole paper, just search on 'sublux'.

Here's an article about the dark side of modern chiropractic. The cited reporter, Simon Singh, has subsequently been vindicated. Even in the UK, with its restrictive libel laws. To the extent that (from today's Crikey):

"English courts have developed a fearsome reputation for restricting online free speech — science writer Simon Singh recently revealed The Age refused to run comments about the absurd scam that is homeopathy because it feared being sued in London".

[Jolly]

Another pro-physio voice here. Mine isn't cheap but worth every cent. If I'm not training for a race I'll sometimes try to self treat an injury with rest, stretches etc. But it rarely works and a trip to the physio is worth weeks of rest.

injuries are often caused by weakness elsewhere. A good physio will detect this, suggest some exercises and you'll often come out the other end stronger than when you were injured.

Like all professions there will be good and bad. If you're not happy, have a mate recommend someone else.

[twosheds]

Bellthorpe, on 02 June 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

iRonnie, the trouble is, no-one except chiropractors can see 'subluxations'. Here's one article that discusses the subject, and reference to another paper that posits that the manipulative techniques involved simply won't work.

If those pages, a spin-off from quackwatch, seem too biased, here's a more middle of the road article that suggests that chiropractors can do some good with manipulation, but that the notion of subluxations is nonsense. I strongly recommend you read the paper cited by Chrisso above. Rather than sit down to read the whole paper, just search on 'sublux'.

Here's an article about the dark side of modern chiropractic. The cited reporter, Simon Singh, has subsequently been vindicated. Even in the UK, with its restrictive libel laws. To the extent that (from today's Crikey):

"English courts have developed a fearsome reputation for restricting online free speech — science writer Simon Singh recently revealed The Age refused to run comments about the absurd scam that is homeopathy because it feared being sued in London".

For you Bellthorpe- im sure you will enjoy:)

[russell2pi]

hehe that's great twosheds .

[Bellthorpe]

Ah yes, that video's been doing the rounds for a while. Homoeopaths, not much to love there. Pun intended.

Speaking of which, I posted this in Another Place this morning. With my annotation:

"I LOVE this comment about his book: "So, this book – is it completely blank inside, but somehow conveys a powerful meaning despite lacking any actual content?"

[Johnso]

A chiropractor wearing an ipod walks into a forum...

Edited by Johnso, 02 June 2011 - 09:35 PM.

[undercover brother]

a chiro, a physio and a (can i say) homeo walked into a bar...

[russell2pi]

undercover brother, on 02 June 2011 - 09:45 PM, said:

(can i say)

Not sure if you can say, or what the obvious "what's the difference between..." joke would be... but the answer would surely be "about one part in a trillion trillion".

[SportsFeet]

An interesting trend that I have noticed in oz is that chiro's are starting to refer to themselves as doctors, dont know why, there not!!!!
Maybe they think it gives them some extra credibility


Just a thought

[undercover brother]

russell2pi, on 02 June 2011 - 10:17 PM, said:

Not sure if you can say, or what the obvious "what's the difference between..." joke would be... but the answer would surely be "about one part in a trillion trillion".

the homeopath 'orders' water because he knows it will contain the memory of whatever alcoholic beverage the other 2 will be paying for; as well as urine and faeces of course.

[iRonnie]

Bellthorpe: Thanks for that.  I is still considering.  Before I say why: are you sure that the unconscious motive for your anti-homeo stance is not teh piss-weak homeo lager (see youtube clip)?

Just some quick comments on some excerpts from the articles you referred me to -if I may. Some serious ,some silly.

Quote

When the communication from the brain to the organ is broken down, there is a malfunction and disease may eventually develop [8].

Yes. When I has a belly full my brain does  malfunction a bit. Oh wait a minute...

Quote

Distorted communications between your brain and your body can cause all kinds of health problems beyond just headaches and backaches. . . .

Yes.  I often get sore legs when my brain gets too cocky at the end of a long run.

Seriously. With great respect to people who have spinal damage: why don’t the scientists,if they haven’t already done so, just round up a bunch of paraplegics and assess their vital organs compared to others? Too easy.

Quote

The FTC claims that chiropractors can only tell patients that chiropractic care can be beneficial for low back pain. Nothing else, not subluxations, wellness, headaches, sciatica, allergies, children's health, ear infections, whiplash, etc.

So chiros on a leash can be helpful.

Quote

There is a small but growing number of chiropractors who recognize the failings of their profession, but sincerely believe that there is a place for chiropractic in the health marketplace.  It is estimated that 70-80% of people will suffer back pain at some time in their lives.  If, as studies seem to indicate, one third of these can find more rapid relief by having safe, conservative manipulative therapy, then there appears to be a large market for the services of scientifically oriented chiropractors.

  

Quote

A more progressive-minded group has formed the National Association for Chiropractic Medicine (NACM), a professional association with views which are in harmony with science and consumer protection.  Using guidelines set forth by the NCAHF Task Force on Chiropractic, NACM has openly renounced the "subluxation" theory and unscientific practices.  Members limit their scope of practice to neuro musculo-skeletal conditions, and its modes of treatment to those which have scientific validity. NACM does not present itself as an alternative health care system to medical science.
So chiros  have the potential to evolve into a more science-based  profession.

  
This suggests that there are already the markers around for chiropractic profession to fall more in line with known and well-proven  medicine.  

And re: the article by Dr. John Ankerberg, Dr. John Weldon.

Quote

Manipulative therapy is safe, effective, and useful for treatment
of back pain, headaches, and certain other musculoskeletal problems. Chiropractors
are usually more skilled in this method than other practitioners because of
their extensive training.(my boldening) But chiropractic as a whole may also involve more than
manipulative therapy (incorporating additional treatments, some of which are New
Age or scientifically questionable). Manipulative therapy itself may be over-utilized
by chiropractors or applied to conditions for which there is no known justification.
...
Nevertheless, appropriate physical manipulation employed by chiropractors can
be both safe and beneficial. General massage for headaches and rational conservative
spinal manipulation therapy for some backaches and other
neuromusculoskeletal disorders is medically justifiable. This is why most chiropractors
apparently spend most of their time in treating neuromusculoskeletal symptoms

Again all this suggests to me that good chiros are being  lumped in with the whackos. Maybe the anti-chiro mob need to take a more measured stance.

Quote

The science writer Simon Singh stands to lose £60,000 in legal costs despite winning a case against chiropractors who sued him for libel over his criticism of their medical claims.

Ever notice how the whacko fundi-kind of religions and ideologues (both past and present)  kill or do horrendous things to silence people who criticise their beliefs or position?  The attitude, in my opinion, of those that sued Simon Singh is much the same. Mind you, I am all for taking legal action against those who engage in malicious slander  and  libel –especially when used for  bullying  vulnerable people.

Edited by iRonnie, 03 June 2011 - 01:42 PM.

[Crosstrainingcam]

for certain injuries physio can be very useful and they are essential for correct rehab, but they dont help with all problems, imo its best to consult a physio and surgeon for any injuries

[Flash11]

Seeing a Chiro for a variety of issues.

Fixed my Plantar Fasciitis in three months after suffering it for nine months. He worked on me walking straighter and my posture and my walking pattern which helped a lot.

As for my groin / abdominal problems I find the treatment is inconsistent. Some days I feel well that session was worth the money and other session I feel that I just threw some money away as I basically could have done the treatment myself (except for the basic back and hip adjustments)

Still a good bloke but I have found that my injury issues in terms of improving has platued and not much improvement is occurring long term. It is Possible time to part ways and save the money which I need.

[iRonnie]

Swaggerer staggerered into a CR drinks night and asked if anyone could spare a fag...   

[dave1678]

ponytail, on 01 June 2011 - 10:14 PM, said:

I'm gathering from some replies to this that the evil chiro's are seen as some kind of sharmans....?????

I go to my chiro before most of my ultras to get my spine alligned. The back usually plays up if I do something out of the ordinary. Started by jumping off our house as a 17 year old
Has been particularly good since January perhaps because I ran 55K to get there.
Got my 3rd full price physio appointment tomorrow (ever)and even though I ran 76K yesterday I don't really have any injury issues except my back which I'l see the chiro about soon. (Prob result of not warming up properly before heavy weights last week [I forgot uper body])

Also physio doesn't seem keen to get rid of me anytime soon but can't say too much he's a runner. Might be on coolrunning;)

[Ponytail]

I like my physio and he has been particularly helpful for previous injuries where I've walked into his office already pretty sure what the problem is.  This time is different and I had concerns it may involve bone or spinal/pelvic imbalance, although he was quick to dismiss this (and has been quite dismissive of any multidisciplinary approach I have suggested, for that matter).  The problem is, his treatment - electrode suction thingeys that get attached to the general vicinity of the area are only offering some relief - I feel he's not getting to the cause of the problem.  I'm feeling there's something else at play which is causing some muscle reaction (which he can offer some band-aid relief for but not enough to allow me to run pain free).  I am looking at the broader picture and am starting to figure that many practitioners, somewhat like religious groups, think that their way is the only way.

[dave1678]

SportsFeet, on 02 June 2011 - 10:30 PM, said:

An interesting trend that I have noticed in oz is that chiro's are starting to refer to themselves as doctors, dont know why, there not!!!!
Maybe they think it gives them some extra credibility


Just a thought

Most Australian trained Chiros aren't doctors. My Canadian trained Chiro has a doctorate from 6 years training. Just like another friend has a doctorate in Philosophy.

[dave1678]

Coolrunning author Keith Livingstone is a chiropractor. He has written the great read Healthy Intelligent Training.
Ryan Gregson regularly sees both a Chiro and a Physio.
I've finally got a release from the physio. I just go to chiro when I need to.
ATM I'm actualy planning on going back to uni to do Physio but maybe I should do something more radical like acupuncture or Bowen therapy.