29 replies to this topic

[utragreg]

GCM will hopefully be the fulfillment of a long term ambition.  I have some shin splint issues so have been trying to find a balance between training and keeping injury free.

My SMH half time this year was 1:44.  I try to do one long run each weekend and in the last 2 months have managed a few 30km runs just under 3 hours.  Poor nutritional management ( ie not eating any breakfast saw me hit the wall at 28km).  I also try and run a second smaller run mid week (5-10km) and I do a bootcamp 2-3 times a week which invariably includes thousands of squats, running on sand etc.

So....I really hope I can finish, and more than that, finish around 4 hours.  Would love so some feedback if this is feasible


Thanks

[vat]

I had a fairly extensive post on this a few years ago in either the Canberra or Gold Coast forums, but can't find it, so anyway:

- it will hurt, especially later on.  It's a marathon, it's supposed to be difficult and hurt, can't do much about it

- don't underestimate the mental side - pain and tiredness later on (especially when you're out there for four hours) will really test your mental strength.  You will quite likely become quite emotional - I often found I went through a range of emotions late in the event, from being upset to angry, sometimes resigned to failure (this is a key test!).  You'll probably learn a few things about yourself - if you can push through the mental side it's quite an amazing thing to look back on, and from a life perspective you can draw strength from it. On quite a few occasions I've used the internal dialogue "I ran a 2:48 marathon with a back injury and osteitis pubis - I can do/endure this task".

- formulate an honest plan based on your achievements during the training build up, and stick to it.  I absolutely guarantee the post-GC Marathon thread will be full of "I blew up at 30k" or similar because people were doing silly things like trying to run 3:30 off a 47 minute 10k time and two long runs of 28k.  Okay, an extreme example, but it illustrates my point - running is a very "honest" sport, in that results will come from hard work, not from a miraculous "good day".  90% of big blow ups come from either runners being underdone, or setting unrealistic goals based on their training and other race times (the others come from nutritional issues, injury, illness and the like).  Go back through the previous race reports for any popular marathon here and you'll see exactly what I mean, it's the same every year.  It's almost comical - this wealth of information and people seem incapable of reading and understanding it

- try to plan as much of the days leading up to the marathon as you can, so you can focus on the race itself on the day rather than worrying about where to park, where to put your bag, where will you meet people after the finish, etc.

- you will sleep badly the Saturday night before.  Try to set yourself up to get good sleeps on the Thursday and Friday nights

- plan your carb load.  I have excellent results with the AIS carb load plan.

- if you finish and meet your goal, celebrate!  You will be fragile for five weeks or so afterwards - there are many examples of runners who finished a marathon, recovered for two or three weeks, felt fantastic, gone well for a couple of weeks and then broken down with an injury.  It's a dangerous time for runners - I mean, you've just gone for a 42k training run! - very easy to overdo it and injure yourself

In your case it's too late in the piece to talk about race nutritional planning (should have been practising that in your long runs) and the lack of running more than 30k is a concern.  Your half time says 4 hours is more than achievable, but to be honest you're underdone endurance-wise.  I reckon you could head out at a little better than 4 hour pace to about 25 or so, and see how things evolve over the next 5 to 6k - that period's probably going to be critical for you.  You're probably in for a tough time of it after 32, but that could be said of any marathon, well-prepared or not!

Hope it all goes well for you on the day.

[GrizzlyBear]

I think the saying is that more people don't make the start of a marathon than the finish.

So well done on getting to the start line!

I think the key for a first time marathon is to ensure your goal time is in line with your preparation.

This way you will enjoy it and hopefully go back for a more.

It is more than likely something won't go to plan during the race. Your challenge is to a) not let it get to you and overcome it.

You will learn a lot about yourself in the last hour of the race! Physically and mentally!

And last tip is to drink early!

Enjoy the race

Dave

[Shredder1]

Have to agree with Vat. You may be a little underdone on endurance. I'd take the 1st half very conservatively then see how your feeling at 30km. I was a 1:48 half marathoner and it took me 4 goes to crack fours hrs. It was only when I put the miles in that I was able to do it. Remember boot camp is not running. Great for fitness etc but not the same as training for a marathon. Sorry to sound a bit negative but I just ran Perth today and blew up at 36km. Didn't do enough training and went out too fast!

Good luck at the gold coast.

[utragreg]

Hopefully this week puts things in perspective
5.5k, 5.5k, 1 hr hill work with 70 squats at the bottom of descentt, 5.5k, 2 days rest then 30km today (2h48m).  I live in Sydney so the course I take is quite hilly.
Other than my knee being a bit came through fine. No burn out, even pace etc....
I guess though the marathon really starts after 30kms

[Shredder1]

Unfortunately it does as I had a cracker 30k today!

[MountainGoat]

I'm also up for my first marathon. Just did the King of the Range today for a hard hit out.

I have been following one of the furman FIRST training programs. The longest run in it is 32km (which I did in the wet). Felt good during the run.  I did a 10km in 40 min a few years back. Havent done this sort of run recently - so no idea what I would do it in now, but I do know I can do 5km in 20 min fairly comfortably. Aiming for 3:30. Is that too conservative a time?  any tips on what I should expect?

[Bellthorpe]

On what do you base your 3:30? Do you not have any races in your marathon lead-up? You should. Otherwise there's nothing on which to predict a useful time, and you will have no idea at all on how to pace yourself.

[vat]

Bellthorpe, on 19 June 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

On what do you base your 3:30? Do you not have any races in your marathon lead-up? You should. Otherwise there's nothing on which to predict a useful time, and you will have no idea at all on how to pace yourself.

OP mentioned a 1:44 SMH Half, so I'd imagine it was that plus a bit of fat to account for the lack of running of more than 30k.

[Bellthorpe]

I was responding to MountainGoat, not OP.

[clanrunner]

utragreg, on 19 June 2011 - 07:52 AM, said:

My SMH half time this year was 1:44.  I try to do one long run each weekend and in the last 2 months have managed a few 30km runs just under 3 hours.  Poor nutritional management ( ie not eating any breakfast saw me hit the wall at 28km).  I also try and run a second smaller run mid week (5-10km) and I do a bootcamp 2-3 times a week which invariably includes thousands of squats, running on sand etc.

So....I really hope I can finish, and more than that, finish around 4 hours.  Would love so some feedback if this is feasible

What to expect? Expect to discover things about a marathon that you couldn't know without running one, regardless of how much you read or listen to others. For this reason I suggest not worrying too much about a target time for your first marathon. Just do it and find out what it's about. This will be invaluable to your training for your 2nd marathon, which is when you can start thinking more seriously about target times.

As others have said, don't go out too optimistically at the start. For a race up to about 30km in length, I'd recommend going at a pace that feels comfortable both physically (ie not too fast) and mentally (ie not too slow). But for most runners, and especially first-timers, the marathon is too far to mentally visualise, and hence too far to judge if you can hold a particular pace the whole distance or not. Run within yourself until the last 5-10k, then see how you go.

[Peterhorse]

... ditto to the above

expect to be saying to yourself at 35k "I wish Pheidippedes had died here" (to borrow a great line from a marathon legend, Frank Shorter i think??). the extra bit is what makes it all so interesting.

yes, the last 10k is hard work for sure, but it's not as bad as many first timers make out if you judge it right and match your pacing to your preparation. that's why i like Vat's assessment of the post race reviews. the negative comments are mostly from those who went out too hard for their level of preparation.

most importantly on what to expect is to keep telling yourself what you expect of yourself so it becomes a positive assertion!! in the lead up and during my first one, i fussed about things like whether i had the right socks and preventing sore nipples and the right hydration and nutrition and everything else that might go wrong... so during the last 10-12k when it gets physically harder, my head was consumed with these thoughts of whether i was dying from under or over hydration or whether a major cramp was going to get me soon or blah blah... that's all unnecessary burden to carry and us unproductive. much better to get the positive (and truthful) mantra going... the last one i did ran the whole way at the same pace pretty much and the self talks was all "i've done the work, my legs can do it, just keep running" and "wow, look at that view, what a great scene to have running this marathon, this is a great experience"

that positive shit actually works i found :-)  

have fun and remember why you're doing it

PH

p.s. for Mountain Goat, if your program included 4-6 runs of 30-32k AND you have consistently done 50-70k per week over the last few, based on your potential from 5 and 10k times, 3:30 sounds worth a shot to me. if you haven't done that sort of work, you still have the potential but it probably won't happen this time.

[Eagle]

What Vat said is spot on.

Halfway in the marathon is 30k - you need to get there feeling comfortable so that you can maitain the pace over the last 12k. The aim is to NOT SLOW DOWN after 30k if you do that and have set the correct pace then you will run about even splits and that will mean you have run the best possible time according to yoour fitness.

Go out too hard and you will blow up and run a time much slower than your fitness. That is a real shame when on race day you throw away months of hard dedicated training in the first 40 minutes.

Running a good marathon incorpoates a lot of things as Vat and others have mentioned. Do not underestimate the mental aspect and that not only means being strong and focused when the running gets tough after 30k but it also means using your brain at the start and hold back and be patient - you will be rewarded with a great finish over the last 12k.

[caulfield]

I ran my first marathon yesterday (Perth).

Felt as prepared as I could have been, last 3 weeks before the taper were 90k+ with my longest run being 37.

Carbo loaded well and tapered sensibly. Have a 1/2 marathon PB of 1:26 so was chasing 3:05 - 3:10.

The good preparation gave me the confidence to go out at 4:10m/km, went through the 1/2 in 1:27. It was great to have some minutes in the bank for the finish. Managed not to slow to much and finished with 2:57:28.

Extremely sore this morning but very happy. Last 6km were definately the hardest k's i've ever run had to constantly convince myself not to slow down / stop.

Good luck to all you prospective 1st timers, go for it.

[Unlikelyrunner]

Everything said is correct, but dont forget to smile, wave at the people who cheer you from the crowd, and smile a lot.  

A positive and happy outlook makes for a great race.

[mutk]

MountainGoat, on 19 June 2011 - 09:48 PM, said:

I'm also up for my first marathon. Just did the King of the Range today for a hard hit out.

I have been following one of the furman FIRST training programs. The longest run in it is 32km (which I did in the wet). Felt good during the run.  I did a 10km in 40 min a few years back. Havent done this sort of run recently - so no idea what I would do it in now, but I do know I can do 5km in 20 min fairly comfortably. Aiming for 3:30. Is that too conservative a time?  any tips on what I should expect?

Howdy MountainGoat.. I have recently been working on a training plan incorporating the furman FIRST training methods - Run Less Run Faster - is the book I have BTW.

One thing you should already know is that FIRST programs all state very specific paces to do their prescribed 3 key runs. Assuming you have read and are using similar training.. Therefore if you have looked up the training paces and based them on your realistic current capability, you should be pacing 'quite fast'. And if you can do the training at the prescribed paces then that is a pretty good predictor of whether your 3hr30 goal is realistic or not.

So, have been doing the prescribed paces ok?

Cheers

[mathewnicholls]

Heading up for my first marathon, going to try for 3:45 but would be happy anywhere within 4:00 to be honest!

[Supersam1979]

mathewnicholls, on 20 June 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Heading up for my first marathon, going to try for 3:45 but would be happy anywhere within 4:00 to be honest!

2.11 times your half is used as a guide. That said I have a quickest marathon on a hilly course in 26c sunshine, maximum 60KM a week training and wearing no watch.

Sometimes you just have to go out, trust your gut and run until you can't run anymore. The first will always hurt. I would be doing 2-3 runs of 32KM as a first and loads in the 20-25KM mark. This with speed will get you over the line well. Remember though that you have to run some of your long runs at perceived marathon pace to get used to it. If you can't hold it in trAINING then there is scant chance you will hold it over the 42K.

The first will always hurt as you don't know what to expect. Just prepare as best you can and go for it.

Good luck.

[russell2pi]

Peterhorse, on 20 June 2011 - 10:28 AM, said:

i fussed about things like whether i had the right socks and preventing sore nipples and the right hydration and nutrition and everything else that might go wrong... so during the last 10-12k when it gets physically harder, my head was consumed with these thoughts of whether i was dying from under or over hydration massive nipple rupture

Fixed it for you  

[Peterhorse]

russell2pi, on 20 June 2011 - 04:13 PM, said:

Fixed it for you  

Youch!! OK, well thankfully i did sort that one yes. and um ... it's not only the nipples that could do with ample bodyglide or vaseline or pawpaw ointment btw lads ... give it heaps on the tackle, and as per the original question ... expect to be abrased   in many places. A good addition thanks Russ

[MountainGoat]

mutk:

I have been following their plans they they put up on line. I ordered the book - but it only arrived a couple of days ago - havent read it yet - just flicked through some of the tables.

As for the paces - the best answer I can give is - some of the time.  On the long runs - if anything I have been going a bit quicker than their pace most of the time.
On the tempo runs - usually fairly close. But I live in a very cold area - and train before going to work in the morning - I think the cold does slow you down a bit.
The sprint - usually a bit slower. I am an absolutely rats*** sprinter. At school - always came last in the 100 and 200m unless there was a fat kid in the race (and even then it could be a close call). Given my complete lack of natural ability over the short distance - perhaps this contributes to me being a bit slower?

There wasnt much difference though - I got fairly close to what FIRST recommended for the sprint times.

[mathewnicholls]

Supersam1979, on 20 June 2011 - 04:05 PM, said:

2.11 times your half is used as a guide. That said I have a quickest marathon on a hilly course in 26c sunshine, maximum 60KM a week training and wearing no watch.

Sometimes you just have to go out, trust your gut and run until you can't run anymore. The first will always hurt. I would be doing 2-3 runs of 32KM as a first and loads in the 20-25KM mark. This with speed will get you over the line well. Remember though that you have to run some of your long runs at perceived marathon pace to get used to it. If you can't hold it in trAINING then there is scant chance you will hold it over the 42K.

The first will always hurt as you don't know what to expect. Just prepare as best you can and go for it.

Good luck.

Cheers!

There isn't too many half mararthons down here in Hobart to go in and get official times. In some of my longer training runs though (32km - 38km) I was at about 1hr 40min's at the 21km point. So I'm somewhat confident that I should be able to hold the 3hr 45min pace (5.33min km's) well into the second half, hopefully for the full duration of the run if I'm felling good. Guess I'll find out on the day!!

[Unlikelyrunner]

Except that 3:45 pace is much quicker than 5:33's.  I think its 5:22's or thereabouts isnt it?

[mathewnicholls]

Unlikelyrunner, on 21 June 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

Except that 3:45 pace is much quicker than 5:33's.  I think its 5:22's or thereabouts isnt it?

Ahhh, .33 of a minute = 5.195min km's. You're right!

Will see how I go, like 'Supersam' said: Will just go for it on the day.

[Unlikelyrunner]

With a 1:50 half I'd reckon 5:22's will be about your limit (best case scenario).

Give it a go and see what happens.  If you dont quite manage to hold on, dont be disheartened, just treat it as a lesson learned and think of way's of improving next time around.

And enjoy the day!!!

[Supersam1979]

My first marathon was with a half of 1.45. I did 3.43 on a hard course. In theory I had more, but I was nervous and not knowing what to expect went with the very experienced Horrie (one of the best first time pacers around!) at 3.45 until a few KM from the end and got 3.43.

One thing I have learned is that the head needs to be right. Don't also trust a pacer unless you know them and their capabilities and fitness. Many times I have seen people burned completely by chasing someone who was either way too quick or who did not have the legs for the distance. That said there are plenty of good pacers out there such as Horrie.

Try to run some runs without a watch and feel your pace from your gut. A Garmin/watch etc is no guarantee that you can run a time and sometimes knowing that you are behind at a certain point has that effect of pushing you and your head loses focus to. Remember the saying - 'what you don't know can't hurt you'.

Sometimes to we are so wedded to a time that we find it hard to break it as that is what the brain is saying we are capable of. Case in point a young lady who had a sub 40 10KM in her, but continually hit 41-42. We took away her watch and made her just pace off us during a race and guess what 39.40 - she broke her ceiling and has not looked back.

Edited by Supersam1979, 21 June 2011 - 11:44 AM.

[flyingemu]

GC will only be mara number 9 for me so I'm no expert, but here's my tips and comments.

1. Dont worry about your time. What you will remember most about your debut marathon is the feeling of crossing the line, not what your time was.
2. Go slow in th first two km. Knock about 20 secs per km off your goal pace. This will ensure you're warmed up and you won't go out too hard.
3. Don't look at your watch too often. I just ran a marathon pb without a watch. I was more relaxed and ran by feel. Since you will have good and bad patches, running by feel will make sure you expend energy consistently.
4. When you feel like you want to walk, don't. Keep running. Slow down, sure, but don't walk. Easy to say, hard to do. Tell yourself, "Run for just one more km". Repeat until the end.
5. No-one's advise will make any sense until you experience it for yourself. So ignore everything, and learn your own lessons - it's more fun that way. hehe.

Good luck

f'emu

[mutk]

MountainGoat, on 20 June 2011 - 08:29 PM, said:

mutk:

I have been following their plans they they put up on line. I ordered the book - but it only arrived a couple of days ago - havent read it yet - just flicked through some of the tables.

As for the paces - the best answer I can give is - some of the time.  On the long runs - if anything I have been going a bit quicker than their pace most of the time.
On the tempo runs - usually fairly close. But I live in a very cold area - and train before going to work in the morning - I think the cold does slow you down a bit.
The sprint - usually a bit slower. I am an absolutely rats*** sprinter. At school - always came last in the 100 and 200m unless there was a fat kid in the race (and even then it could be a close call). Given my complete lack of natural ability over the short distance - perhaps this contributes to me being a bit slower?

There wasnt much difference though - I got fairly close to what FIRST recommended for the sprint times.

Ok so assuming you have the 32km paces  a little faster than the prescribed paces AND assuming that you decided what pace to aim for in the 32km runs by looking up the furman FIRST train pace tables by using 20min for a 5 km,  then you will be on target for a sub 3hr30.

A lot of assumptions there:)   BTW I am at very early stage of the FIRST training, and find the speed runs are very ambitious for where I am at now. I was able to do 20min for 5km pretty easily last year, managed 42min for 10km, did a 1hr35 HM  etc.. But I have had to back off weekly mileage to get over Achilles tendinitis.. It takes a LONG time BTW.

I am actually pretty fast at speed, am able to do a sub 1min 400 regardless of how well trained I am. But I find the training paces for the speed work from FIRST really hard and the medium and long runs paces easy... Possibly because the fast runs push you for VO2 MAX..

Anyway shall see if I do any good in Melbourne October 9  ..

[blair]

Expect to hurt.
Expect to want to stop. Don't let that happen.

[TassiePenguin]

mathew, another tasmanian heading up, good to see, seems to be lots.   I am also hoping for 3.30, going out with the 3.30 pacer, and then see how I feel at 30km.  I was a lot more confident at the 6.5 km mark of the Launceston ten on Sunday, before I got a slight hamstring twinge which I am currently nursing.  went through turn in 19.15, and was on 3.52 km pace at 6km.  Hobbled to finish in 41.20 which restored the confidence a bit.  Might see you on the palne (assuming the ash clears