25 replies to this topic

[Runner500]

All ideas welcome.
By aerobic capacity I mean being able to run faster without bordering onto the lactate zone. My MP (Mara pace) is around 4:30/k. I'd like to run @ around 4:15/k in around 6 months to a year. Hence the question.

Edited by Runner500, 27 August 2011 - 07:22 AM.

[Jason M]

Ideas for what?

What do you want to achieve?
What do you mean by aerobic capacity?

[Runner500]

Jason M, on 26 August 2011 - 07:40 AM, said:

Ideas for what?

What do you want to achieve?
What do you mean by aerobic capacity?

Run marathon sub 3 hour. Is it too much to ask?

[B+]

Runner500, on 26 August 2011 - 09:01 AM, said:

Run marathon sub 3 hour. Is it too much to ask?

Why aren't you posing this question to your coach?
Surely he/she would be in a much better position to decide which of the multitude of training variables to manipulate to acheive this goal for you as an individual than any of us on here.
I ask this as you have state several times in other threads that you have a coach. If you have asked then what was the input?

Train safe

[Runner500]

B+, on 26 August 2011 - 09:35 AM, said:

Why aren't you posing this question to your coach?
Surely he/she would be in a much better position to decide which of the multitude of training variables to manipulate to acheive this goal for you as an individual than any of us on here.
I ask this as you have state several times in other threads that you have a coach. If you have asked then what was the input?

Train safe

Let me think...


1. This is a forum where people discuss things regardless of whether they have coaches or not.
2. There's lots to learn from sharing ideas, experiences and such. That's what forums do. I learnt to hold back and train more conservatively on this forum.
3. Having a coach does not in any form whatsoever preclude you from getting new angles at similar sort of WOs.

BTW my coach insists on long term approach. He believes that it's like watching grass grow. I'd like to know if people on here have a novel approach eg cross training, doubles etc.

Edited by Runner500, 26 August 2011 - 08:53 PM.

[Rainlover]

Runner500, on 26 August 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

Let me think...


1. This is a forum where people discuss things regardless of whether they have coaches or not.
2. There's lots to learn from sharing ideas, experiences and such. That's what forums do. I learnt to hold back and train more conservatively on this forum.
3. Having a coach does not in any form whatsoever preclude you from getting new angles at similar sort of WOs.

BTW my coach insists on long term approach. He believes that it's like watching grass grow. I'd like to know if people on here have a novel approach eg cross training, doubles etc.

Well said....many a time it could be reasonably argued that threads become disjointed and go totally off the track to what otherwise could have been something worthwhile. What you say should be as you say anyway, sharing is caring!!!

Edited by Rainlover, 26 August 2011 - 11:33 PM.

[cappy]

Runner500, on 26 August 2011 - 04:53 AM, said:

All ideas welcome?
By aerobic capacity I mean being able to run faster without bordering onto the lactate zone. My MP (Mara pace) is around 4:30/k. I'd like to run @ around 4:15/k in around 6 months to a year. Hence the question.

I'm not exactly sure what you're question is. If you read it back to yourself, you don't actually ask one

If you want to talk about going sub 3 there is a great thread here where lots of guys discuss it

http://www.coolrunni...ic=31076&st=-49

Lots of interesting and different approaches to the goal. Hope this helps

Edited by cappy, 27 August 2011 - 04:52 AM.

[Jicale]

give fartlek a try

[lactatehead]

Runner500, on 26 August 2011 - 07:20 PM, said:

BTW my coach insists on long term approach. He believes that it's like watching grass grow. I'd like to know if people on here have a novel approach eg cross training, doubles etc.

"Too many cooks spoil the broth"

If your coach believes in a long term approach you will undermine his system by tacking on other ideas and techniques. All training plans need to be well co-ordinated and should not be meddled with.
A coach I know well has athletes who trust his decisions and only follow his directions, and consequently make huge improvements. However, he has others who become distracted by other runners telling them that they need to do more of this and less of that. Those athletes always end up injured.
I strongly believe that if you are going to have a coach you must trust them or it will never work.

[iRonnie]

cappy, on 27 August 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'm not exactly sure what you're question is. If you read it back to yourself, you don't actually ask one

If you want to talk about going sub 3 there is a great thread here where lots of guys discuss it

http://www.coolrunni...ic=31076&st=-49

Lots of interesting and different approaches to the goal. Hope this helps

Cappy: Runner500s question is in the thread title. Runner500 asked: Aerobic Capacity. What specific types of WOs are best for the purpose?

In his post he stated:

Quote

All ideas welcome.
By aerobic capacity I mean being able to run faster without bordering onto the lactate zone. My MP (Mara pace) is around 4:30/k. I'd like to run @ around 4:15/k in around 6 months to a year. Hence the question.

I saw it as more a conversation starter- a way of sharing than a direct request for a solution. A bit rhetorical even. Everyone has a workout tbat they think s best for developing the ability to hold their expected marathon pace?

Runner500 Lactate's response probably explains why you haven't received much help.  Also, there is an unwritten law: "Thou shalt not tread on other coaches toes or confuse his charges with conflicting information."

Given your coach has a long-term view, I would say he is placing a fair bit of emphasis on building your aerobic capacity.   All running helps with building aerobic capacity. For me,  the combination of lactate threshold; low-intensity aerobic; a little bit of anaerobic-bounce work; and solid endurance running helps with my aerobic capacity - and hence (I'm hoping) my ability to maintain a certain marathon pace is set right.  In other words, a combination of all my specific sessions over a period of time.

  It took me a far while to get the mix right (or what i think is right). Your coach is best to tell you what he thinks will work for you.

In regards to developing aerobic capacity for the marathon:  The session i think works best for me (it wouldn't work without the other sessions to consolidate things),  is my Saturday lactate-threshold session. This is 3x6k at my marathon pace. Other guys I know do 12k in one hit, while many others race Cross Country.   That is for me not necessarily you. Your coach could maybe tell you why.

Coaches need feedback. A good charge will devote time to learning how to communicate with his coach. A coach needs to know all your concerns and gaps in your understanding.  The great coach, Arthur Lydiard, insisted that a good coach is one that can explain why sessions will work for the athlete.  And good acharge is one who picks their coaches brain for as much info as possible.

My apologies if I have tread on anyone's toes. I tried to answer the question without doing so.

Edited by iRonnie, 27 August 2011 - 03:43 PM.

[Peterhorse]

iRonnie, on 27 August 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

...Given your coach has a long-term view, I would say he is placing a fair bit of emphasis on building your aerobic capacity.   All running helps with building aerobic capacity. For me,  the combination of lactate threshold; low-intensity aerobic; a little bit of anaerobic-bounce work; and solid endurance running helps with my aerobic capacity - and hence (I'm hoping) my ability to maintain a certain marathon pace is set right.  In other words, a combination of all my specific sessions over a period of time.

... i'm definitely not a coach, However in your profile you say your 5k pB is 19:45 and 10k is ~41 done in training... Well mine aren't too far off (19:53 and 42:58 respectively), and i'm just working on a sub 3:30 for now, not sub 3:00, so take this with a pinch of slat if you like...

I was going to say both of these points anyway and iRonnie set local and world age group records so i'm feeling good about reinforing it :-)...

1. long term aproach. building capacity takes a long time. your coach sounds like he is making this point. short term speed over a short distance (400-800m etc) is a different concept from distance running.
2. mix of sessions. to me if you think of capacity as being like a piece of bubble gum that you want to stretch out longer and longer by pulling it at both ends. one end is base build, the other end is speed ... so you do both of thoses and everyting in between, but as you stretch it, which one is that is increasing that length (capacity)? bit of everything but who knows how much contribution each session makes in your indivudual case? that's the talent of the coach to figure.

But... to help understand what that all means in speific session goals etc, have a read through the notes on this web site.... just keep clicking 'next' at the bottom of the page.  McMillan Running

[cappy]

iRonnie, on 27 August 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Cappy: Runner500s question is in the thread title. Runner500 asked: Aerobic Capacity. What specific types of WOs are best for the purpose?

Ah, I don't see the sub-headers on my iPhone all I saw was the "Aerobic Capacity" bit and there was no real question in his first post

Apols

[Runner500]

lactatehead, on 27 August 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

"Too many cooks spoil the broth"

If your coach believes in a long term approach you will undermine his system by tacking on other ideas and techniques. All training plans need to be well co-ordinated and should not be meddled with.
A coach I know well has athletes who trust his decisions and only follow his directions, and consequently make huge improvements. However, he has others who become distracted by other runners telling them that they need to do more of this and less of that. Those athletes always end up injured.
I strongly believe that if you are going to have a coach you must trust them or it will never work.

Still fun to share a few pointers.

Peterhorse, on 27 August 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

... i'm definitely not a coach, However in your profile you say your 5k pB is 19:45 and 10k is ~41 done in training... Well mine aren't too far off (19:53 and 42:58 respectively), and i'm just working on a sub 3:30 for now, not sub 3:00, so take this with a pinch of slat if you like...

I was going to say both of these points anyway and iRonnie set local and world age group records so i'm feeling good about reinforing it :-)...

1. long term aproach. building capacity takes a long time. your coach sounds like he is making this point. short term speed over a short distance (400-800m etc) is a different concept from distance running.
2. mix of sessions. to me if you think of capacity as being like a piece of bubble gum that you want to stretch out longer and longer by pulling it at both ends. one end is base build, the other end is speed ... so you do both of thoses and everyting in between, but as you stretch it, which one is that is increasing that length (capacity)? bit of everything but who knows how much contribution each session makes in your indivudual case? that's the talent of the coach to figure.

But... to help understand what that all means in speific session goals etc, have a read through the notes on this web site.... just keep clicking 'next' at the bottom of the page.  McMillan Running

Cheers.

[Runner500]

iRonnie, on 27 August 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

Cappy: Runner500s question is in the thread title. Runner500 asked: Aerobic Capacity. What specific types of WOs are best for the purpose?

In his post he stated:



I saw it as more a conversation starter- a way of sharing than a direct request for a solution. A bit rhetorical even. Everyone has a workout tbat they think s best for developing the ability to hold their expected marathon pace?

Runner500 Lactate's response probably explains why you haven't received much help.  Also, there is an unwritten law: "Thou shalt not tread on other coaches toes or confuse his charges with conflicting information."

Given your coach has a long-term view, I would say he is placing a fair bit of emphasis on building your aerobic capacity.   All running helps with building aerobic capacity. For me,  the combination of lactate threshold; low-intensity aerobic; a little bit of anaerobic-bounce work; and solid endurance running helps with my aerobic capacity - and hence (I'm hoping) my ability to maintain a certain marathon pace is set right.  In other words, a combination of all my specific sessions over a period of time.

  It took me a far while to get the mix right (or what i think is right). Your coach is best to tell you what he thinks will work for you.

In regards to developing aerobic capacity for the marathon:  The session i think works best for me (it wouldn't work without the other sessions to consolidate things),  is my Saturday lactate-threshold session. This is 3x6k at my marathon pace. Other guys I know do 12k in one hit, while many others race Cross Country.   That is for me not necessarily you. Your coach could maybe tell you why.

Coaches need feedback. A good charge will devote time to learning how to communicate with his coach. A coach needs to know all your concerns and gaps in your understanding.  The great coach, Arthur Lydiard, insisted that a good coach is one that can explain why sessions will work for the athlete.  And good acharge is one who picks their coaches brain for as much info as possible.

My apologies if I have tread on anyone's toes. I tried to answer the question without doing so.

Great shout. I defo need to talk to him about fatigue which is beginning to set in. It seems as if my legs are grinding to a halt.

[Runner500]

cappy, on 27 August 2011 - 04:46 AM, said:

I'm not exactly sure what you're question is. If you read it back to yourself, you don't actually ask one

If you want to talk about going sub 3 there is a great thread here where lots of guys discuss it

http://www.coolrunni...ic=31076&st=-49

Lots of interesting and different approaches to the goal. Hope this helps

Great thread. Cheers. Just realized that the guys going for sub three are streets ahead (literally) in fitness terms. My tempo pace is around 4:05-4:08. It ought to be around 4. My 1k reps are round 3:50 instead of 3:40 etc.

[cappy]

Mate, if it were easy, it wouldn't be as rewarding to achieve

That's what I tell myself anyway as I improve toward sub 3

[Runner500]

cappy, on 27 August 2011 - 10:25 PM, said:

Mate, if it were easy, it wouldn't be as rewarding to achieve

That's what I tell myself anyway as I improve toward sub 3

How far are you from achieving it?

[Runner500]

Peterhorse, on 27 August 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

... i'm definitely not a coach, However in your profile you say your 5k pB is 19:45 and 10k is ~41 done in training... Well mine aren't too far off (19:53 and 42:58 respectively), and i'm just working on a sub 3:30 for now, not sub 3:00, so take this with a pinch of slat if you like...

I was going to say both of these points anyway and iRonnie set local and world age group records so i'm feeling good about reinforing it :-)...

1. long term aproach. building capacity takes a long time. your coach sounds like he is making this point. short term speed over a short distance (400-800m etc) is a different concept from distance running.
2. mix of sessions. to me if you think of capacity as being like a piece of bubble gum that you want to stretch out longer and longer by pulling it at both ends. one end is base build, the other end is speed ... so you do both of thoses and everyting in between, but as you stretch it, which one is that is increasing that length (capacity)? bit of everything but who knows how much contribution each session makes in your indivudual case? that's the talent of the coach to figure.

But... to help understand what that all means in speific session goals etc, have a read through the notes on this web site.... just keep clicking 'next' at the bottom of the page.  McMillan Running

I was just wondering that your 5k time is pretty good and according to the 'all hail the MacMillon Race Predictor', you should be nailing the Marathon time at around 3:12. 3:30 looks way within your reach.

[Peterhorse]

Runner500, on 28 August 2011 - 04:39 AM, said:

I was just wondering that your 5k time is pretty good and according to the 'all hail the MacMillon Race Predictor', you should be nailing the Marathon time at around 3:12. 3:30 looks way within your reach.

exactly grasshpopper :-)... try entering in the 11:19 i did for a 3k time trial about a mnth before new york mara and see what that says!!!  

There is a big qualification that goes with Mcmillian's predictor... and that is 'you do the right training for that distance'. Apparently, i'm not doing the right training for marathon compared to the shorter stuff. I'll get the sub 3:30 ok if i just get a clear run for 4 months without injuries, but getting to what Greg mcMilla expects of me is a different propisition altogether ;-)

I think you'll see everything in this thread very differently after you've done your first marathon, then again after you have done 4-5 closing the gap to your long term goal.

Unless you're a hidden talent and it all comes easy for you, you'll find it just ain't an easy distance.

cheers

PH

Edited by Peterhorse, 28 August 2011 - 09:10 AM.

[cappy]

Runner500, on 28 August 2011 - 04:35 AM, said:

How far are you from achieving it?

I have just finished the Perth city to surf in a pb of 3:01:58 (unofficial) so I'm two mins off. On a flat course like Melbourne I feel I could go under but I'm short on cash so it may have to wait for Bunbury/Perth next year

[iRonnie]

Peterhorse, on 27 August 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

I was going to say both of these points anyway and iRonnie set local and world age group records so i'm feeling good about reinforing it :-)...

Credit where credit is due mate.  I have never gotten near to the world records.  Granted I have scored a few State and National records, which I have on good authority Mona has said he will "smash".  I is a mere hack on the world scene.

Get load of these times all.  Most old codgers (myself included) can only marvel at their aerobic capacity as the disappear down the road.

Men - M 50 – 54:
2:19:29 Titus Mamabolo  RSA 11.01.1941 Durban 20.07.1991
2:20:28 Jack Foster  NZL 23.05.1932 Auckland 30.05.1982
Men - M 55 – 59:
2:25:56 Piet Van Alphen  NED 16.08.1930 Rotterdam 19.04.1986
2:26:35 Erik Östbye  SWE 25.01.1921 Gothenburg 19.09.1976
Men - M 60 – 64:
2:36:30 Yoshihisa Hosaka  JPN 05.01.1949 Beppu Oita 01.02.2009
Men - M 65 – 69:
2:41:57 Derek Turnbull  NZL 05.12.1926 London 12.04.1992
Men - M 70 – 74:
2:54:48 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Toronto 26.09.2004
Men - M 75 – 79:
3:04:53 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Rotterdam 15.04.2007
Men - M 80 – 84:
3:25:43 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Rotterdam  10.04.2011
Men - M 85 – 89: 4:34:55 Robert Horman  AUS 01.05.1918 Gold Coast 04.07.2004

[iRonnie]

cappy, on 27 August 2011 - 04:55 PM, said:

Ah, I don't see the sub-headers on my iPhone all I saw was the "Aerobic Capacity" bit and there was no real question in his first postApols

Easy mistake to make. The question may well have been better saved for the post itself. Live and learn.

cappy, on 27 August 2011 - 10:25 PM, said:

Mate, if it were easy, it wouldn't be as rewarding to achieve ;)That's what I tell myself anyway as I improve toward sub 3

So true. The three-hour barrier is a stern taskmaster.

[twosheds]

iRonnie, on 28 August 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Credit where credit is due mate.  I have never gotten near to the world records.  Granted I have scored a few State and National records, which I have on good authority Mona has said he will "smash".  I is a mere hack on the world scene.

Get load of these times all.  Most old codgers (myself included) can only marvel at their aerobic capacity as the disappear down the road.

Men - M 50 – 54:
2:19:29 Titus Mamabolo  RSA 11.01.1941 Durban 20.07.1991
2:20:28 Jack Foster  NZL 23.05.1932 Auckland 30.05.1982
Men - M 55 – 59:
2:25:56 Piet Van Alphen  NED 16.08.1930 Rotterdam 19.04.1986
2:26:35 Erik Östbye  SWE 25.01.1921 Gothenburg 19.09.1976
Men - M 60 – 64:
2:36:30 Yoshihisa Hosaka  JPN 05.01.1949 Beppu Oita 01.02.2009
Men - M 65 – 69:
2:41:57 Derek Turnbull  NZL 05.12.1926 London 12.04.1992
Men - M 70 – 74:
2:54:48 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Toronto 26.09.2004
Men - M 75 – 79:
3:04:53 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Rotterdam 15.04.2007
Men - M 80 – 84:
3:25:43 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Rotterdam  10.04.2011
Men - M 85 – 89: 4:34:55 Robert Horman  AUS 01.05.1918 Gold Coast 04.07.2004

Wow these are incredible. Im sure the female ones are slightly slower but I could only beat the one in the 85-90 category. All I have to do is not slow down for the next 40 years- how hard can that be? Some people are just amazing!

[iRonnie]

twosheds, on 28 August 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Wow these are incredible. Im sure the female ones are slightly slower but I could only beat the one in the 85-90 category. All I have to do is not slow down for the next 40 years- how hard can that be? Some people are just amazing!

Ooops.  The grals are awesome too.  

Women - W 45 – 49:

2:29:00 Tatyana Pozdniakova  UKR 04.03.1955 Providence 13.10.2002

Women - W 50 – 54:

2:31:05 Tatyana Pozdniakova  UKR 04.03.1955 Los Angeles 06.03.2005

Women - W 55 – 59:

2:51:40 Christine Kennedy  IRL 29.12.1954 St.George 02.10.2010

Women - W 60 – 64:

3:01:30 Bernardine Portenski  NZL 26.08.1949 Gold Coast 04.07.2010

Women - W 65 – 69:

3:12:57 Emmi Lüthi  SUI 01.03.1944 Zürich 26.04.2009

Women - W 70 – 74:

3:44:15 Christa Wulf  GER 11.12.1933 Hamburg 18.04.2004

Women - W 75 – 79:

3:57:30 Gwen McFarlan  CAN 04.04.1934 Vancouver 03.05.2009

Women - W 80 – 84:

4:31:42a Helen Klein  USA 27.11.1922 Sacramento 08.12.2002

Women - W 85 – 89:

5:36:15 Helen Klein  USA 27.11.1922 Napa Valley 02.03.2008
5:40:52 Ruth Rothfarb  USA 18.06.1901 Washington 02.11.1986

[twosheds]

iRonnie, on 28 August 2011 - 02:09 PM, said:

Ooops.  The grals are awesome too.  

Women - W 45 – 49:

2:29:00 Tatyana Pozdniakova  UKR 04.03.1955 Providence 13.10.2002

Women - W 50 – 54:

2:31:05 Tatyana Pozdniakova  UKR 04.03.1955 Los Angeles 06.03.2005

Women - W 55 – 59:

2:51:40 Christine Kennedy  IRL 29.12.1954 St.George 02.10.2010

Women - W 60 – 64:

3:01:30 Bernardine Portenski  NZL 26.08.1949 Gold Coast 04.07.2010

Women - W 65 – 69:

3:12:57 Emmi Lüthi  SUI 01.03.1944 Zürich 26.04.2009

Women - W 70 – 74:

3:44:15 Christa Wulf  GER 11.12.1933 Hamburg 18.04.2004

Women - W 75 – 79:

3:57:30 Gwen McFarlan  CAN 04.04.1934 Vancouver 03.05.2009

Women - W 80 – 84:

4:31:42a Helen Klein  USA 27.11.1922 Sacramento 08.12.2002

Women - W 85 – 89:

5:36:15 Helen Klein  USA 27.11.1922 Napa Valley 02.03.2008
5:40:52 Ruth Rothfarb  USA 18.06.1901 Washington 02.11.1986

Only have to hold onto my pace for another 30 years to get a WR.

[KevM]

iRonnie, on 28 August 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Men - M 70 – 74:
2:54:48 Ed Whitlock  CAN 06.03.1931 Toronto 26.09.2004

Those times are incredible.
My favourite is 2:54:48 at 70 years of age! Awesome.
That's 4mins 8secs per k. Most men that age are finding it hard to walk a few k's.