32 replies to this topic

[MAWLER]

Hi All,

I have been running semi-regularly for the last 12 months or so and have recently reached a point of fitness that has challenged me to consider a HM in May next year. My current 10k time sits at 40min.  

I would consider myself to have an inconsistant technique and a bit of a heel striker and have suffered some knee pain in the past, which I no longer suffer from through greater leg muscle training and general common sense. Since running is going to become more than recreational and the K's are going to increase dramatically, it becomes more important for me to work on my technique and fitness etc. and I want to do it right. Hence I am wanting to include some barefoot running as part of my training program.

I do not intend to run the HM barefoot or take up 100% barefoot running in the future, it is purely intended as a tool to increase my technique and muscle fitness. Keeping in mind that it won't be getting dedicated use and that I will be running on roads and light trails only, what barefoot shoe would you recommend for me?

Naturally I have looked at VFF as the steriotypical go to option, but am unsure which shoe best suits my purposes. While the BIKILA is specifically designed for running it seems overkill for my intended usage, but I was unsure the Sprint was enough 'shoe'. Needless to say that I wanted to access your collective experience to ensure I pick the right shoe, even something beyond Vibram.

Thanks in advance.

[vat]

Find a nice, grassy oval or grassy area and do some gentle reps (say 200 to 400 metres) in bare feet first.  You don't want to lay out big money on shoes and find it doesn't work for you - the Vibrams would be the shoes most commonly offered secondhand here in the last year or so.

[SpecBGT]

Hi Mawler,

The grass option is a good way to start getting acclimatised to barefoot running. I did a lot of my initial running in the Sprints. While there isn't a lot of shoe I found that to my benefit. It is does give some protection but doesn't provide any cushioning effect and therefore ensures that your form is maintained otherwise things start to hurt. If you have some well maintained trails nearby then this would be a better surface to progress to after grass, and before hitting the paths and streets.

[cjr]

The other option is to go for a more "transitional" flexible shoe with a low heel drop and not much support, but still a bit of cushioning (like the Saucony Kinvara) and start doing some of your shorter runs in them as first and then gradually increase the distance befor transitining even further (if you want to). That is what I did when I had a lot of knee pain and now do all my running in them (inlcuding marathons and ultras) and my knee pain is history

[Brick]

Could also try either:
New Balance MT10
Merrell Trail Gloves

Both have vibram soles but not the separate toe just a wider than normal toe box.
I found that the MT10 have a wider toe box than the Merrell.

[TheLogicDump]

Brick, on 30 November 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

Could also try either:
New Balance MT10
Merrell Trail Gloves

Both have vibram soles but not the separate toe just a wider than normal toe box.
I found that the MT10 have a wider toe box than the Merrell.

The New Balance MT10's also have a slightly thicker heel which will be good for the newer "minimalist" shoe. Another consideration would be the Inov8 f-lite 195's. They aren't minimalist in the way that vibrams or the two listed by Brick are but they only have a 3mm heel drop and a comparatively thinner (than most runners) sole.

[vat]

If we're going down this route, maybe find some Nike Free 3.0 and try them out. At least you'll have something nice to walk in if you don't like running in them.

[omy005]

Brick, on 30 November 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

Could also try either:
New Balance MT10
Merrell Trail Gloves

Both have vibram soles but not the separate toe just a wider than normal toe box.
I found that the MT10 have a wider toe box than the Merrell.

+1 for the Trail Gloves.

Andrew

[TCMB]

I run in Asics 2160 and am about to buy a pair of Nike Free Run +2 for a try of reduced drop/cushioning shoes. But i'm also getting a pair of Hoka Bondi for longer runs.

I don't know if this counts as hedging my bet 3 ways? I plan to rotate all 3 shoes pretty much equally to start with. Any reason not to do this?

[MAWLER]

Thanks guys for the quick suggestions. Unfortunately barefoot in the grass won't really be an option for me. I'm currently living in Switzerland so its heading into deepest darkest winter and I don't fancy heading out shoeless in the park! But if I had a minimilist shoe then I could do some runs on grass reasonably successfully as part of the transition phase, so long as there was no snow.

Cheers.

[vat]

TheyCallMeBruce, on 30 November 2011 - 05:22 PM, said:

I plan to rotate all 3 shoes pretty much equally to start with. Any reason not to do this?

None - rotation's always a very good idea.  You'll probably find the shoes will fall into natural roles as you go, say for longer runs, or shorter, faster tempos, that sort of thing.

[MAWLER]

Thinking about it and looking at the shoes you guys recommended, I think a transition runner is the right choice for me atm. I wish to improve my action by utilising barefoot, but I am not ready to jump into a full barefoot shoe both fitness wise and because I really don't know if I will like it or not. A transition shoe will enable me to get a taste, reap some benefits and build a base for taking a step up if I want to further down the track.

The Saucony Kinvara is looking good to me at the moment because it fits that tranistion shoe brief and also seems quite affordable going by US prices, lets me get into the game cheaply! How widely stocked are they in Aus, and what price tag would I expect to find attached? I'll be back in Melb for Christmas so I could easily try on a pair and see how I like them.

[cjr]

MAWLER, on 01 December 2011 - 01:33 AM, said:

Thinking about it and looking at the shoes you guys recommended, I think a transition runner is the right choice for me atm. I wish to improve my action by utilising barefoot, but I am not ready to jump into a full barefoot shoe both fitness wise and because I really don't know if I will like it or not. A transition shoe will enable me to get a taste, reap some benefits and build a base for taking a step up if I want to further down the track.

The Saucony Kinvara is looking good to me at the moment because it fits that tranistion shoe brief and also seems quite affordable going by US prices, lets me get into the game cheaply! How widely stocked are they in Aus, and what price tag would I expect to find attached? I'll be back in Melb for Christmas so I could easily try on a pair and see how I like them.

I have 5 pairs of Kinvaras + 1 peregrine (the trail version)  so know a bit about them
All Athletes Foots have them (around $180). Otherwise there is a shop at DFO Moorabbin (can't remember the name) that sells them for $140. I buy them from the US for around $70 + shipping although like other brands a lot of places don't ship them to AU
One thing though, they don't keep their cushioning very long - the sole goes flat very quickly - I just look at it as them getting more minimalist. I am 85kg though so that may be a factor

[lyricnz]

Brick, on 30 November 2011 - 09:34 AM, said:

Could also try either:
New Balance MT10
Merrell Trail Gloves
Both have vibram soles but not the separate toe just a wider than normal toe box.
I found that the MT10 have a wider toe box than the Merrell.

Did I miss a step? The MT10 are trail shoes. If the poster is running on well formed paths, then perhaps the MR10 might make more sense.  FWIW, that's what I run in, and they feel "fast" compared to my more structured shoes.

http://www.newbalanc...D=MR10&page=all
http://www.newbalanc...D=MT10&page=all

[Brick]

lyricnz, on 01 December 2011 - 12:54 PM, said:

Did I miss a step? The MT10 are trail shoes. If the poster is running on well formed paths, then perhaps the MR10 might make more sense.  FWIW, that's what I run in, and they feel "fast" compared to my more structured shoes.

http://www.newbalanc...D=MR10&page=all
http://www.newbalanc...D=MT10&page=all

I have both the MR10 and the MT10 and the MT10 is a lot more of a minimal shoes that the MR10.
Hence suggesting the MT10, the MT10 is also very nice to run with on the road or trail.

The MR10 is a lot more like a standard road shoe and has a lot less road feel than the MT10.
IMHO it is a bit like the Nike free 3.0 not really that much of a minimal shoe, has plenty of padding and less road feel so if you run with bad form you can get away with it more so than the shoes with Vibram soles like the MT10 and the Trail Gloves.

[lyricnz]

Brick, on 01 December 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

I have both the MR10 and the MT10 and the MT10 is a lot more of a minimal shoes that the MR10.
Hence suggesting the MT10, the MT10 is also very nice to run with on the road or trail.

The MR10 is a lot more like a standard road shoe and has a lot less road feel than the MT10.
IMHO it is a bit like the Nike free 3.0 not really that much of a minimal shoe, has plenty of padding and less road feel so if you run with bad form you can get away with it more so than the shoes with Vibram soles like the MT10 and the Trail Gloves.

Okay, interesting.  On a related note - how do I tell when MR10's are worn out?  With these less-padded shoes, it's probably harder to tell when all the squish has gone.  I haven't recorded my shoes in my training log, but have been using a single pair of MR10s for maybe six months now. I guess 1000km+.

[TCMB]

cjr, on 01 December 2011 - 09:19 AM, said:

Otherwise there is a shop at DFO Moorabbin (can't remember the name)

Probably Authentic Factory Outlet, pretty sure they are the importer. I bought a pair of Kinvaras at their Sydney outlet. Nice shoe, but didn't fit my shape of foot after first run. Anyone want to buy US9.5 Kinvaras with 3km wear?

All the Athlete's Foot near me didn't have any Saucony as shop stock, only to order in at full retail price.

[BarefootBj]

Hi mate,
just a word of caution here - if the goal is to improve your technique (ie. not heel strike) you really can't get away from pure barefoot running. So called 'transitional' shoes allow you to continue getting away with poor technique (especially the Nike Free's)as they don't force you to run right! That said some people even amazingly heel strike in Five Fingers - don't ask me how they do it..

The point is - it's not really about the shoe, yes barefoot or minimalist promote a more natural running style,  but at the end of the day it comes down to technique. I would suggest joining a running club or getting a running coach for a few sessions. Alternatively you can get the book Barefoot running step by step by Ken Bob Saxton which teaches you natural running technique.  

I went straight from Asics 2160s to Vibram Bikilas and it forced me from heel to midfoot strike but my technique only really started improving when I started running barefoot..

Just my two cents..

[BarefootBj]

Hi mate,
just a word of caution here - if the goal is to improve your technique (ie. not heel strike) you really can't get away from pure barefoot running. So called 'transitional' shoes allow you to continue getting away with poor technique (especially the Nike Free's)as they don't force you to run right! That said some people even amazingly heel strike in Five Fingers - don't ask me how they do it..

The point is - it's not really about the shoe, yes barefoot or minimalist promote a more natural running style,  but at the end of the day it comes down to technique. I would suggest joining a running club or getting a running coach for a few sessions. Alternatively you can get the book Barefoot running step by step by Ken Bob Saxton which teaches you natural running technique.  

I went straight from Asics 2160s to Vibram Bikilas and it forced me from heel to midfoot strike but my technique only really started improving when I started running barefoot..

Just my two cents..

[slowmo]

My first "barefoot shoes" were my homemade huarache sandals made from a rubber car floor mat and tied to my feet with boot laces. Total cost would have been about $5 per pair. They didn't last long (very soft rubber) but were great for getting the feel of it.

These days I do some running in Vibram Sprints. They are very good but still rate second to my huaraches. I use Vibram soling rather than rubber mats now so they probably cost around $20 per pair but last for well over 1000km, even on trails.

I also enjoy regular barefoot (ie. naked soles) running, but In response to the comments about barefoot running on grass - that's the one surface I avoid in summer because I just can't handle bindis

slowmo

Edited by slowmo, 03 December 2011 - 01:02 PM.

[MAWLER]

Thanks guys for the comments. Guess once I get into it I'll find out what works best for me and if I need any special help (of the coaching kind).

Ordered a pair of Kinvara 2's online from the UK, hopefully they'll help me run of a few of those Christmas kg's. I let you know how I like them, hopefully.

[Espress0]

I started using the Kinvaras about 6 months ago.  You might get some calf tightness at fist due to the very low 3mm heel drop.  Just ease into them and you won't look back.  I've been very happy with them.

[vat]

Finally got a chance to get out in my Inov8 F-Lite 230's...and am very impressed.  Not a barefoot shoe, though - more a trail flat.  As mentioned I run in a mix of Vibram Bikilas, Nike Frees, Saucony Hattoris and Zoot Ultra Speeds, and these felt like they slotted straight in to the fleet, just with great trail grip.

[SpecBGT]

I bought a pair of Innov8 Bare X 200s and have done a couple of runs in them. Awesome shoe. Although I have been using the Bikilas as my distance shoe, I am thinking these will become my favourite.

[rohan]

Espress0, on 10 January 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I started using the Kinvaras about 6 months ago.  You might get some calf tightness at fist due to the very low 3mm heel drop.  Just ease into them and you won't look back.  I've been very happy with them.

But I really don't know why they get mentioned in a barefoot shoe thread.  They are constructed pretty much as a racing flat. (except they are heavier than say Saucony's race shoe - the Fasttwitch- at least the pairs I have are).
If racing flats are now barefoot shoes some people on the barefoot bandwagon may like to go investigating shoes that have been around for donkeys years but only been marketed as racing shoes.
They're light, have minimal heel drop and often come in funky colors.  Of course they have not been marketed as barefoot shoes so you may look a bit 'serious-racer' rather than 'barefoot-alternative-cool' which may be a downside for some buyers.

[slowmo]

It's hard not to chuckle about this thread's title after seeing the "sh-t barefooters say" video

slowmo

[MAWLER]

slowmo, on 14 February 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

It's hard not to chuckle about this thread's title after seeing the "sh-t barefooters say" video

slowmo

First of all, that is damn hilarious!

Second, a quick report on the Kinvara 2's I bought at Christmas. I have had absolutely no difficulty or real discomfort swapping into the Kinvaras so far, and have probably used them about 10 times across increasing distances 4-10kms. I would say for me there has been a little bit of achilles tightness after using them, but no major calf pain or any other soreness. I have been conscious of my stride over the last few months and trying to land mid-foot when using my other running shoes, so perhaps this has helped reduce the difference others have experienced when swapping to low-heel drop shoes.

I can really comment on the shoe quality themselves as I obviously haven't used them enough to give any real reviews, but they seem adequately manufactured. The only things I would say is that the huge mesh areas on the shoe means that your feet do get wet really easily if there is any kind of rain or moisture on the road, which might bother some ppl.

So to me, so far, they haven't been revolutionary or super amazing, but I'm happy with them and we'll see how they go over the next few months as I build up to HM distances.

[Injured2010]

I have used NB MT10's on trail runs and even on road but just ordered a pair of these with a zero drop for steady runs
http://www.newbalanc...ombo&prefv1=Men

Tried to get a pair of MR10's for longer runs/recovery runs but not got my size and not looking like I will get a pair so still using Ascis Nimbus which I want to stop using in about 2 weeks.  Any more suggestions for a similar show would be welcome.

I also run my speedwork sessions, 5k and 10k races in these which are perfect

http://www.newbalanc...=23&cgid=101000

I have done some barefoot on grass, track and road but technique still not perfect but getting there.

EDIT - Well done Sweatshop just ordered a pair of MR10's

http://www.sweatshop...cfm?ProdID=8409

Edited by Injured2010, 25 February 2012 - 02:30 AM.

[brownsinglet]

Wondering if anyone can help.  Looking to buy a pair of shoes with something around a 5mm heel to toe drop.  I have a pair of merrel trail gloves which I love wearing (at work) but I keep straining my calves using them when running.  So thinking I might try something with a small heel and hoping that might help with the transition.  I've looked at buying a pair of Mr10's but it seems they aren't getting sold anymore or don't ship to Australia.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

[omy005]

Quote

Wondering if anyone can help.  Looking to buy a pair of shoes with something around a 5mm heel to toe drop.  I have a pair of merrel trail gloves which I love wearing (at work) but I keep straining my calves using them when running.  So thinking I might try something with a small heel and hoping that might help with the transition.  I've looked at buying a pair of Mr10's but it seems they aren't getting sold anymore or don't ship to Australia.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

This link http://minimalistrun...list-shoe-store list the heel drop of lots of shoes (not necessarily available here though). You should be able to find something suitable there.

As an aside, it takes quite a long time to transition fully, run comfortably and not have any injuries specifically related to barefoot. I have been going for 5 months and over 500km now and still have niggles if I push to much. I use the Brooks Green Silence with 8mm drop for some relief when needed.  If you go to parkrun at New Farm come and have a chat with me (usually barefoot runner) Hope this helps.

Andrew

[rohan]

omy005, on 28 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

I have been going for 5 months and over 500km now and still have niggles if I push to much.

100km per month. ie 25km per week? or less than 4km per day?
I am surprised you have the mileage to get any injuries.

[brownsinglet]

omy005, on 28 February 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Quote

Wondering if anyone can help.  Looking to buy a pair of shoes with something around a 5mm heel to toe drop.  I have a pair of merrel trail gloves which I love wearing (at work) but I keep straining my calves using them when running.  So thinking I might try something with a small heel and hoping that might help with the transition.  I've looked at buying a pair of Mr10's but it seems they aren't getting sold anymore or don't ship to Australia.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

This link http://minimalistrun...list-shoe-store list the heel drop of lots of shoes (not necessarily available here though). You should be able to find something suitable there.

As an aside, it takes quite a long time to transition fully, run comfortably and not have any injuries specifically related to barefoot. I have been going for 5 months and over 500km now and still have niggles if I push to much. I use the Brooks Green Silence with 8mm drop for some relief when needed.  If you go to parkrun at New Farm come and have a chat with me (usually barefoot runner) Hope this helps.

Andrew

Thanks Andrew,

That website is excellent,  So many choices for minimalist and barefoot shoes.  Will be putting some time in the website tonight and see what I can come up with.
Yeah I see you at the New Farm Parkrun a lot, always easy to see the barefoot runner especially when there is only one usually
I most likely won't make this weeks Parkrun due to resting and running the http://www.corporate...Centre-Series-6 on Sunday.  I will definitely have to pick your brains at sometime in the future though.

Thanks again
Steve

[Max72]

brownsinglet, on 28 February 2012 - 12:08 AM, said:

Wondering if anyone can help.  Looking to buy a pair of shoes with something around a 5mm heel to toe drop.  I have a pair of merrel trail gloves which I love wearing (at work) but I keep straining my calves using them when running.  So thinking I might try something with a small heel and hoping that might help with the transition.  I've looked at buying a pair of Mr10's but it seems they aren't getting sold anymore or don't ship to Australia.

Any suggestions would be appreciated

I would look at inov-8's f-lite 195 (3mm drop) or the f-lite 230 (6mm drop).. if your foot is medium to narrow, these could be good options, if your foot is wide, they may feel a little tight. (FYI - I work for Barefootinc, who import the Inov-8, so I may be biased, but I wore and raced in them long before we started selling them)

Edited by Max72, 05 March 2012 - 08:36 PM.