66 replies to this topic

[Ponytail]

I have been reading the latest "Running World" as well as the "Men's Health" "Eat Right" magazines and they explain all the different supplements and how they assist your fitness.  My problem is, that they all seem like miracles that would assist my running abundntly!  I would appreciate any advice in determining which, if any, of the range of miracle supplements available are, actually, helpful in building strength and endurance as a runner.

[undercover brother]

no

[Rico]

beta alanine is where it's at.  this year.

[chrisso]

I don't know why recreational/enthusiasts runners look to supplements which arent even proven to work or provide only tiny improvements when they probably can gain far more improvement in their running by improving their diet and training programme. Leave the supplement merry-go-round to those at the pointy end of the field looking to improvement their performances beyond what their already optimised diets and training are providing.

[Jimmy4990]

Ponytail

Yes, in general terms nutritional supplements can be beneficial. That is fact & also the easy part of the debate. The difficult part is working out how to use supplements to maximise YOUR health. Optimal health is an individual thing and most would agree it would be ideal to "eat" your way to better health & performance.  

Any product with glossy adverts claiming performance enhancement is best avoided (especially the expensive ones). Many product packs carry the advice. Supplementation may be of benefit when your dietary intake is inadequate. I think this sums it up well.

Chrisso also makes a very valid point. Once diet & training are optimised, then start searching for the 1%er's. Recreational athletes 20kg's overweight  spending a fortune on the latest "Performance in a packet" is ridiculous.

What I take in addition to my food to help my performance. Caffeine, Sodium, Fish Oil & a Multi. I could obtain all these from "natural sources" but for convenience I buy them in a packet.

Good Luck

[Ponytail]

chrisso, on 19 April 2012 - 07:00 AM, said:

I don't know why recreational/enthusiasts runners look to supplements which arent even proven to work or provide only tiny improvements when they probably can gain far more improvement in their running by improving their diet and training programme. Leave the supplement merry-go-round to those at the pointy end of the field looking to improvement their performances beyond what their already optimised diets and training are providing.

Just what I needed, a straight answer!  Reading magazines can mess with your head a bit.  I try hard to make sure I get the most out of my diet and eat vegies at every meal.  I thought I was doing OK until I read about these power supplements which seemed to promise wonders.

I did see the validity in a caffeine based supplement prior to a run (given the research I have read relating to endurance and perceived effort) and my Sports Doctor has prescribed Fish Oil due to my mediocre Vitamin D levels (given that I am a sun-soaker) but the others just confused me.  Maybe I should become a supplement junkie and pop them all.

I guess you can read all you like but, at the end of the day, most of us are just recreational runners and, what might work for Olympic Athletes, isn't going to be required for the rest of us!

[Kibbs]

Supplements are going to have results if you have a deficiency. If you have a deficiency though I'd first be looking at what you're eating. I personally use magnesium after running because I believe it helps recovery time (and love Endura's sweet taste after a hard run).

[Wedgetail]

There is a good summary of supplements at the AIS site.

http://www.ausport.g...ments/overview2

[halfwaydown]

Wedgetail, on 20 April 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

There is a good summary of supplements at the AIS site.

http://www.ausport.g...ments/overview2

Obviously - the proven supplements that help most (in improving performance) would be the Group D ones.

[Jimmy4990]

halfwaydown, on 20 April 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Wedgetail, on 20 April 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

There is a good summary of supplements at the AIS site.

http://www.ausport.g...ments/overview2

Obviously - the proven supplements that help most (in improving performance) would be the Group D ones.

.

Edited by Jimmy4990, 20 April 2012 - 07:15 PM.

[slowmo]

Jimmy4990, on 19 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

What I take in addition to my food to help my performance. Caffeine, Sodium, Fish Oil & a Multi. I could obtain all these from "natural sources" but for convenience I buy them in a packet.

Caffeine in a packet ???  

Far better the way nature intended it: brewed in a stove top espresso from freshly ground beans, filling the house with that most magical aroma that makes you feel more alive even before you've put a cup of black gold to your lips... Now that's caffeine.

slowmo

[Ponytail]

What does my head in, is that I read a lot about nutrition and power-foods and do my best to take it on board (to the point that there are people in my life that call me obsessive!) but I just feel there are so many things you are supposed to incorporate into your diet, I just don't know how I can fit them all in.  How do you weigh fact from fiction?

[Rico]

experiment

treat yourself as a lab rat

[Tony123]

slowmo, on 20 April 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Jimmy4990, on 19 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

What I take in addition to my food to help my performance. Caffeine, Sodium, Fish Oil & a Multi. I could obtain all these from "natural sources" but for convenience I buy them in a packet.

Caffeine in a packet ???  

Far better the way nature intended it: brewed in a stove top espresso from freshly ground beans, filling the house with that most magical aroma that makes you feel more alive even before you've put a cup of black gold to your lips... Now that's caffeine.

slowmo

Put the kettle on, I'm heading over.  

[Jimmy4990]

ponytail, on 20 April 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

What does my head in, is that I read a lot about nutrition and power-foods and do my best to take it on board (to the point that there are people in my life that call me obsessive!) but I just feel there are so many things you are supposed to incorporate into your diet, I just don't know how I can fit them all in.  How do you weigh fact from fiction?

I understand where you are coming from PT. A couple of things to take on board if you like. Always try to improve your performance via improving your health. Only make small changes (one at a time). Think of it as a neverending process.

What may be good for one person could leave you feeling crap.

Ignore critisism, it is your body & you have every right to be as selective as you wish

I read somewhere, studies have shown that 400ml's of beetroot juice 4 hrs prior to high intensity effort can improve performance. I like stuff like this. Give it a go, you really have nothing to lose. On the other hand, 4 scoops of x,y & z always seems a little desperate. Some would say the same about the beetroot juice I guess...lol.. but I am sure you get my drift.

We try to keep things as simple as possible. Exclude nothing. Don't rely solely on anything. I read a good quote the other day. I don't claim to live this way but just the same I think this is a good saying. "Regards Nutrition, if it was invented during the last 100yrs, proceed with caution".

[Jimmy4990]

slowmo, on 20 April 2012 - 09:50 PM, said:

Jimmy4990, on 19 April 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

What I take in addition to my food to help my performance. Caffeine, Sodium, Fish Oil & a Multi. I could obtain all these from "natural sources" but for convenience I buy them in a packet.

Caffeine in a packet ???  

Far better the way nature intended it: brewed in a stove top espresso from freshly ground beans, filling the house with that most magical aroma that makes you feel more alive even before you've put a cup of black gold to your lips... Now that's caffeine.

slowmo

I am hearing you slowmo. By packet I mean tin.(cheap & nasty) I then throw a teaspoon of milo in for good measure. Yes, I am quite the espresso connoisseur.

[Ponytail]

Thanks for the replies.  I start my day with a glass of water infused with a tablespoon of God-awful apple cider vinegar, pop vitamin D3 capsules and a table spoon of fish oil (as advised by my sports doctor), consume a glass of water infused with 70ml of pomegranete juice and add chia to everything I can following my daily kefir dose.

I am trying to source some kelp and natural yeast to add to the mix but still wonder whether I am missing something.  Seriously, I think if I read that drinking your own piss would have serious health benefits, I'd give it a go!  It all seems so plausible, where do you decide to draw the line when you are trying to get the best out of your body?

[slowmo]

Not sure exactly where you draw the line but I'd want that particular variety of "wee dram" to be on the other side of it.

I like Jimmy's comments - especially keep it simple and proceed with caution.  From my own experience I'd add: don't over-medicalize your diet. Eating a varied diet with lots of fresh food prepared in ways that you love nourishes your body but also your heart / mind / spirit, whereas having your eating choices dominated by a systematic quest for optimal performance and nutrition can suck the joy out of it.

That's not to say you should necessarily give up the vinegar or whatever. Just avoid the miracle food roundabout.

Just my 2c. I'm not a nutritionist.

slowmo

[Ponytail]

Sorry, just that I was recently subscribed fish oil and vitamin D on top of the miriad of wonder foods/supplements I have read about that I already try to corporate into my daily routine and I was wondering where it all ends.  I read of supplements that build stamina, strength, recovery and they all seem plausible but, on top of all the wonder-foods that I do my best to include in my diet, are there supplements that could do more for me?  When you read so much about this stuff, it's hard to separate the fact from bullshit!

[tdm]

ponytail, on 21 April 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

. . .  Seriously, I think if I read that drinking your own piss would have serious health benefits, I'd give it a go!   . . . .

Just Google it and you will read that. I don't know about 'serious health benefits', but millions of people across the world do it every day. I'm not one of them.

[Jimmy4990]

ponytail, on 22 April 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Sorry, just that I was recently subscribed fish oil and vitamin D on top of the miriad of wonder foods/supplements I have read about that I already try to corporate into my daily routine and I was wondering where it all ends.  I read of supplements that build stamina, strength, recovery and they all seem plausible but, on top of all the wonder-foods that I do my best to include in my diet, are there supplements that could do more for me?  When you read so much about this stuff, it's hard to separate the fact from bullshit!

Their are good hearted, passionate people trying to find ways to help people deal with all aspects of health and performance. For every one of them, their is a thief praying on the fact, most humans prefer "results in a tin". You would have to think that good old fashioned hard work is going to deliver the most reliable results. BTW. My wife (AKA Kazza) would be likely to drink her own piss if given a choice between it & beetroot juice

[Davo]

Gives a whole new meaning to, when I was younger, mates asking me if I was "getting on the piss tonight?"

[Leaf]

slowmo, on 22 April 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Eating a varied diet with lots of fresh food prepared in ways that you love nourishes your body but also your heart / mind / spirit, whereas having your eating choices dominated by a systematic quest for optimal performance and nutrition can suck the joy out of it.

Like x1000!

I think a lot of supplements/super foods have the same benefits, so if you use excessive amounts of them you'll probably piss the excess out (which would then mean - you guessed it - drinking your own wee!)

A healthy, varied diet is definitely the way to go.

[Tony123]

tdm, on 23 April 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

ponytail, on 21 April 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

. . .  Seriously, I think if I read that drinking your own piss would have serious health benefits, I'd give it a go!   . . . .

Just Google it and you will read that. I don't know about 'serious health benefits', but millions of people across the world do it every day. I'm not one of them.

I saw a documentary on Jim Stynes about 12 months ago.  He was drinking his own urine in the hope that it would cure his cancer.

[walker1st]

the usual diet of the 99% of the population is nutrients deficient, regardless how much they eat and how varied it looks.
At the same time it contains lots of harmful chemicals.
The digestive system of 99% of population is in a such tragic state of affair, that even ideal full nutrient rich diet would not get digested and nutrients absorbed.
Supplements could add the missing nutrients but would the digestive system digest them and would body absorb them ?

I would challenge anybody to show me his/her own long term personal diet-meal plan to show how all the nutrients are there and not harmful chemicals.

[Wedgetail]

walker1st, on 24 April 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

the usual diet of the 99% of the population is nutrients deficient, regardless how much they eat and how varied it looks.
At the same time it contains lots of harmful chemicals.
The digestive system of 99% of population is in a such tragic state of affair, that even ideal full nutrient rich diet would not get digested and nutrients absorbed.
Supplements could add the missing nutrients but would the digestive system digest them and would body absorb them ?

I would challenge anybody to show me his/her own long term personal diet-meal plan to show how all the nutrients are there and not harmful chemicals.

Possibly true but what's the answer?

Do we need to add soluble fibre and pro-biotics to get the digestive system into some sort of health before we look at supplements?

[Jimmy4990]

walker1st, on 24 April 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

the usual diet of the 99% of the population is nutrients deficient, regardless how much they eat and how varied it looks.
At the same time it contains lots of harmful chemicals.
The digestive system of 99% of population is in a such tragic state of affair, that even ideal full nutrient rich diet would not get digested and nutrients absorbed.
Supplements could add the missing nutrients but would the digestive system digest them and would body absorb them ?

I would challenge anybody to show me his/her own long term personal diet-meal plan to show how all the nutrients are there and not harmful chemicals.

I think parts of that may be true but the same still applies. Never stop trying, never stop learning & do the best you can each & every day. I have spent the last 6yrs trying to eliminate as much crap as possible. Replacing each bad choice with what my judgement at that particular time says is a good one. If I don't swallow the "missing nutrients" the chances of absorbtion are zero. I am much better off for my efforts.

[Davo]

walker1st, on 24 April 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

the usual diet of the 99% of the population is nutrients deficient, regardless how much they eat and how varied it looks.
At the same time it contains lots of harmful chemicals.
The digestive system of 99% of population is in a such tragic state of affair, that even ideal full nutrient rich diet would not get digested and nutrients absorbed.
Supplements could add the missing nutrients but would the digestive system digest them and would body absorb them ?

I would challenge anybody to show me his/her own long term personal diet-meal plan to show how all the nutrients are there and not harmful chemicals.

Probably true to some extent, Rudolf, but not to the extremes you imply.
Whatever you may say about the modern diet, the facts remain that world records are still being broken, and the average life expectancy of a man is now 80; for a woman it's even more.
That's not too bad when compared with Roman times when the average life expectancy was 22.

[chrisso]

Davo, on 24 April 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Whatever you may say about the modern diet, the facts remain that world records are still being broken, and the average life expectancy of a man is now 80; for a woman it's even more.
That's not too bad when compared with Roman times when the average life expectancy was 22.

Over-nutrition is a bigger issue in many countries. And it probably won't be long till men's average life expectancy will match women's average life expectancy.

[Shankate]

I will reply to this with my personal anecdotal findings. My supplement cupboard has fluctuated a lot over the years, as like you Ponytail, I probably read too much crap. I will share what I have experimented with & whether I noticed any 'changes':
Olive leaf extract (nothing, discontinued)
Glucosamine (nothing, discontinued)
Flaxseed oil (still sitting in the fridge, probably rancid by now)
Chia seeds (like the texture, use them now only in muesli bars, ie. Not 'therapeutically')
Fish oil tablets (discontinued)
Power greens powder (liked the taste & idea but hideously expensive, discontinued)
Vitamin b12 (vegan phase, discontinued as I eat lots of sardines now)
Garlic horseradish vit c (tasted revolting, glad when I finished the container)
Echinacea (not much literature but I still take it if i feel a 'cold' coming on)

I do however take the following regularly. Keep in mind this is in full Ironman training, ie. 16+ hrs / week:
Liquid iron supplement (Clements)
Vitamin C (take it with the iron)
Magnesium powder (after workouts)
Calcium (opposite end of the day to the iron)
Silica (only recently when I started getting desperate with plantar fasciitis)

I have also thought about co enzyme q10 (sp.?) but feel I'm spending enough as is, on top of an already very nutritious diet to be able to justify it.

Hope this adds to the discussion in some meaningful way. What do others take / use on a regular basis in addition to a healthy diet?

[twosheds]

One of my good friends is nearly 70 years old ( i can hardly believe it- she seems about 40) She has been an outstanding
runners and still is for her age. She is the healthiest and most disciplined person I know. I have asked he about supplements and she
says she  has never taken them. Her secret is vegetables- every single day- all the colours of the rainbow as  she puts it. makes a lot of sense.
twosheds

[otisr]

Personal experience - protein powder / shakes and magnesium / calcium tablets.

Protein for recovery - i do notice the difference.  Magnesium (Endura, etc) also helps the hydration and recovery.  I like longish trail runs and as many hills as i can find, so my training might be different to yours.

I also like my coffee - cant do a long run without the instant brew prior.  And a cup of Hairy Lemon in the morning.

I am 50+ so a little assistance as above helps me keep going.

[Jimmy4990]

Shankate, on 25 April 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Silica (only recently when I started getting desperate with plantar fasciitis)

My wife is suffering with PF. Apparently BEER is a good source of Silica. I will let her know

[Ponytail]

i originally heard about the whole drinking your piss thing from Jimmy Stynes' battle with cancer. I do my best to eat a varied diet but whenever I read about so-called "super foods" or supplements that help ward off cancer, make you stronger, help build endurance, help with recovery I'm hooked!

[Rico]

I thought urine drinking was just for insufficiently supported ultras.

[walker1st]

Davo, on 24 April 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

walker1st, on 24 April 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

the usual diet of the 99% of the population is nutrients deficient, regardless how much they eat and how varied it looks.
At the same time it contains lots of harmful chemicals.
The digestive system of 99% of population is in a such tragic state of affair, that even ideal full nutrient rich diet would not get digested and nutrients absorbed.
Supplements could add the missing nutrients but would the digestive system digest them and would body absorb them ?

I would challenge anybody to show me his/her own long term personal diet-meal plan to show how all the nutrients are there and not harmful chemicals.

Probably true to some extent, Rudolf, but not to the extremes you imply.
Whatever you may say about the modern diet, the facts remain that world records are still being broken, and the average life expectancy of a man is now 80; for a woman it's even more.
That's not too bad when compared with Roman times when the average life expectancy was 22.

Davo, world records are broken by runners who are NOT on western type of diet.
The length of life does not depend on missing nutrients, human body can survive nutritional deficiencies, it is the quality of life that suffers.
The life expectancy depends on the timing and location - do you live in a war zone, crime zone, toxic zone, radiation zone.
Romans were very efficient in killing each other.

[walker1st]

urine therapy can be explained in various ways, one is :

the homeopatic principle, the urine contains some toxins, as the body is trying to clear itself out. urine therapy is one of detoxing tools, taken in small amount in specific detoxing procedures and time of day etc, will reintroduce back to the body the body toxins, these are recognized by sensors in mouth digestive system etc and should activate the body detox mechanisms to expel these specific toxins.
So drinking back very little should result in expelling much more during the detox period.
However these procedure as with all other detox procedures could not be used just by anybody in any state, you need to slowly prepare yourself by mild detoxing
otherwise so much toxins could be released into the blood that you could really kill yourself with toxicity.
There are many steps in detoxing the the body and you just cant jump into the deep end.

[Ponytail]

I have read that the body is tuned/designed to detoxify as part of the natural matabolism process and that detox diets are not required.  The very reason that we have kidneys and a liver is because they are supposed to process waste and they don't require wierd diets to help them do what they are designed to do.

[undercover brother]

ponytail, on 26 April 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I have read that the body is tuned/designed to detoxify as part of the natural matabolism process and that detox diets are not required.  

correct - 'detox diets' are a misnomer.
what is often required is simply to not put the crap in in the first place.

[walker1st]

ponytail, on 26 April 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I have read that the body is tuned/designed to detoxify as part of the natural matabolism process and that detox diets are not required.  The very reason that we have kidneys and a liver is because they are supposed to process waste and they don't require wierd diets to help them do what they are designed to do.

yes exactly, however I am not sure how you are interpreting this

the detox capacity per day is limited and the usual western diet puts in multiples of our detox daily capacity, so obviously our body is trying but is not able to cope.

When you get to that point in your life as an adult, realizing what is going on, so much garbage is already inside, that even if you completely stop taking in any rubish, It would take years and years for body to get rid of it.

Detox procedures are simply states where you stop putting garbage in and by procedures will tune the detox organs to full detoxing capacity,

so basically the aim is to get body to do what it was originally designed to do, so no big deal or miracle.

[Jimmy4990]

Today, upon advice I checked out the Candida Detox. It basically tells me to stop eating everything that I eat. I am a like Ponytail I guess. I would really like "holistic"" solutions to my (and in particular my 4yr old sons) health problems. We have had cold's, allergy etc for months on end. Trial & error, processess of elimination & alike is taking so long with no relief in sight. There is so much information / misinformation out there. It really does become a bit overwhelming.

Edited by Jimmy4990, 27 April 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[Ultramouse]

Rico, on 25 April 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

I thought urine drinking was just for insufficiently supported ultras.

Last time I did it I won a bet which paid for my train fare back to Uni.

[Ultramouse]

On a more serious note, read Runners World book, 'Performance Nutrition For Runners', by Matt Fitzgerald. Sounds trite, but it has changed my life.

[messyjessy]

Seriously, I think if I read that drinking your own piss would have serious health benefits, I'd give it a go!

My grandma had cancer and drank her own wee for years. Seriously.

She was so sick and the doctors said she wouldn't live. She met an Indian faith healer and read 'The water of life' and then drank her own wee every morning before brekkie and the cancer disappeared and she lived another 30 years.  Cancer free.  My dad got into a bit too, he'd drink it, and if I ever fell over and grazed my knee he'd put a bit of wee on it.  I tried drinking it once, far better chilled. Actually great to gargle it if you have a sore throat!

Not sure it would help ya running though!!

I was gonna do a post like this ponytail. I don't take anything except some flaxseed oil on my brekkie (give it to the kids too). But now I'm running sometimes 40k a week I wondered if I should take some magic supplement to help keep me strong.  I actually went to the doctor and made him take lots of blood tests to check my iron levels and everything.  Haven't got the results yet but will let that guide my choices and will try to improve diet first.  If anything I'd take a more 'natural' supplement like fish oil or vitamins.

[Bellthorpe]

http://www.skepdic.com/urine.html

[apricots]

A good friend recently put me onto a pre-workout supplement called Assault.   It's a powder with all sorts of stuff in it, plus a good slug of caffeine.  You mix it in water and drink it down about 20 minutes before your workout.   I've noticed a definite boost in my energy, which is what I needed.   I know it isn't "magic", but my theory is that if it gives me the energy to train better, then my fitness and performance will improve, so it's sort of self-perpetuating.   (is that the right word?)  
I don't drink coffee -  just water, or black, unsweetened tea, and I don't touch fizzy drinks or juices.  So I won't be getting caffeine any other way.

[Rico]

Looked up Assault and it has the magical ingredient, ie beta alanine.

[catherinewinglet]

I don't think so that such supplements works effectively.

Phenocal

[ChloeP]

I'm unsure as to whether supplements actually help or work. Except for calcium supplements, there isn't much data out there that actually confirms that supplements have an effect. I'd stick to a healthy diet to get all the good nutrients!

[Ponytail]

If you're going with calcium you'd probably want to pair or with vitamin D especial this time of year and it's difficult to get enough through diet alone.