25 replies to this topic

[adr1an]

The last 10 weeks I've been building up, fairly sensibly I think, from about 50k a week up to 90k. Last week was a step down week of about 77k.

I think I'm flirting with injury but am reluctant to take time off. I've been trying to run through niggles this year, as last year I would straight away take time off and ended up with a very inconsistent year of training (this is really my second year of running)

Is this a recipe for disaster?

I credit the fatigue to doing all my runs last week on pretty hilly terrain and the main culprit being an LT pace run which smashed my toenail (still painful) and gave me an outside knee issue (doesn't feel like ITB which I had a while back).

I'm icing, heating, radox-ing, eating more protein, eating more, drinking more, stretching more, rolling more - even had a massage and dry needling monday.

Trying to hit SMH half on Sunday and it's looking bad at this stage.

Does this happen to people or am I just soft?

[Mile27]

I think your down week isn't very down. If an up week is 90 then a down week should be more like 50 or so. Having a down week every 3-4 weeks really helps keep the niggles at bay and allows for more consistent training.

[vat]

I think you're showing signs of developing injury.  90km a week in your second year of 'proper' running is pretty solid mileage, particularly in building from 50km 10 weeks ago - what is your weekly structure like, and your week to week numbers?  Are you training for something inparticular?

Being stiff and running on tired legs is a fact of life for long distance runners (and an important thing to deal with for the marathon), but there is a point where you're overdoing it.  I wonder if you're verging into that territory, and your body's trying to tell you to back off a bit - not completely, but a bit.

[Ponytail]

I have so been there and paid the price.  I had absolutely no structure, just consistency and too much of it, when I started running.  I endured about two years of 80- 100k's/week with no abaiting and felt pretty much invincible!  Then the injuries hit.  I started out with just about a half dozen calf strains and a couple of hamstring strains and then the big one hit - the stress fracture!  That one rocked my world and I've been far more sensible since then - I feel so lucky to run at all ever since then.  I feel you are at the cocky stage (I've been there, so no disrespect)  and I think you need to understand what injury does to really devastate what is so important.

[vat]

I think it's important to cycle through long build ups - you can't just build and build and build, there have to be times where you 'come off the throttle'.  With a marathon program you have a naturally built in 4 to 5 week off period after the event.

There are two factors to consider - distance, obviously, which has been identified above, but also intensity, which is what motivated my question regarding adr1an's structure.  It's one thing to plod around at 5 min/km pace and build at 10% a week (just going on adr1an's marathon time from his profile), but if some of those plod sessions are suddenly replaced by5 x 1km repeats at 4 min/km pace and a 10km tempo at 4:15 pace, then you're going to encounter issues like fatigue and ongoing niggles.  These higher intensity sessions, like increasing distance, need to be introduced gradually to allow the body to adapt.

I've found Brisbane naturally lends itself to these ebbs and flows in training intensity - it's too hot from Oct/Nov through to late March to run meaningful or representative times, so I muck around with triathlon.  Running mileage comes off, the bike gets a bit more work and I hit the pool.  Gives a bit of a mental break, although it'll be a bit different this year with my focus (hopefully) moving to Six Foot after the Noosa tri in early November - but there's an easier period there after the Brisbane Marathon, so the 'break' is kind of built into the year's structure anyway.

[Paul Every]

adr1an, on 17 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

.....Is this a recipe for disaster?....

....I think I'm flirting with injury ....

I think that deep down, you know the answer.

[adr1an]

vat, on 17 May 2012 - 10:07 PM, said:

I think you're showing signs of developing injury.  90km a week in your second year of 'proper' running is pretty solid mileage, particularly in building from 50km 10 weeks ago - what is your weekly structure like, and your week to week numbers?  Are you training for something inparticular?

Being stiff and running on tired legs is a fact of life for long distance runners (and an important thing to deal with for the marathon), but there is a point where you're overdoing it.  I wonder if you're verging into that territory, and your body's trying to tell you to back off a bit - not completely, but a bit.

Thanks everyone!

So the general consensus seems to be to back off a bit an rest, rather than trying to continue and hope that it feels better.

As far as structure, I've been following the 'endurance' phase from Pfitzingers Advanced Marathoning book. Last 10 weeks have looked like this: 60, 60, 64, 69, 72, 62, 85, 18 (sick), 90, 77. A few weeks of 50k before that. Mostly all moderate to easy km's. Easy runs are at about 5:40min/km, aerobic pace around 5min/km. No intervals, just some threshold work, but not much.

I've been through the injury stuff. ITB stopped me from running before I'd even really started a few years ago, had a stress fracture scare last year after, ahem, building to a couple of 100k weeks post sydney marathon. I never had an MRI but took 8 weeks off and started back very, very slowly. (Actually dont believe it was a stressie)

I've heard of people talking about just having bad patches where they can kind of work through the fatigue. I don't want to get into a habit where if I start feeling stiff and sore, which Vat as you mentioned is a fact of life when marathon training, that I back off if not necessary.

[adr1an]

Paul Every, on 18 May 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

adr1an, on 17 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

.....Is this a recipe for disaster?....

....I think I'm flirting with injury ....

I think that deep down, you know the answer.

Probably not even that deep. But don't people come on here to be reassured that it's all fine and everyone goes through it.

Paul, as an ultra runner you must have had your fair share of deeply fatigued legs in training that you just need to push through?

[Paul Every]

adr1an, on 18 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Probably not even that deep. But don't people come on here to be reassured that it's all fine and everyone goes through it.

Yes, sometimes we all just need to hear others say exactly what that little voice in our head is telling us.

adr1an, on 18 May 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

Paul, as an ultra runner you must have had your fair share of deeply fatigued legs in training that you just need to push through?

I think the trick is to be able to make the judgment and balance between fatigue, minor niggle, imminent injury, counter-productive training, and safely over-loading volume or intensity before pulling back. Achieving that usually requires a mix of experience, intuition, sound decision, a dollop of luck and more.

The good thing is that the longer you are able to achieve the right mix, and stay uninjured and train consistently over an extended period, the stronger one's body becomes and the more latitude one has to experiment with and extend the limits of one's speed and distance.

On the other hand, a couple of injuries can result in a succession of continual rebuilding.

I have been often asked how I can run the miles that I have without injury. My reply has often been "That's because I don't get injured." It is not as smart-arse as it sounds.

Edited by Paul Every, 18 May 2012 - 10:24 AM.

[Mile27]

There is a difference between deeply fatigued legs that you push through because you know you have an easy week coming up and deeply fatigued legs full of niggles with no recovery week insight.

One mistake many runners make is waiting until there legs are literally begging for an easy week , you have had 7 weeks in a row without an easy week, not surprising your legs are complaining.

An easy week every 3-4 weeks where you mileage drops by at least 30-40% is highly recommended.

Remember the progressive overload principle , we progressively overload our bodies by running which our bodies adapt to by increasing strength fitness etc but if there is not enough recovery then the body can't adapt quick enough to cope with the ever increasing load and we start to break down.

Also listen to your body and be flexible sometimes you need to have an easier week early than planned .

Keys signs for me are running speed and motivation. If my long runs are normally 4.45 min k's and I find myself struggling to run 5 min k's I know I'm going to need a break very soon.

I also find that whenever motivation is lacking it usually means I need a rest. Like most people on here I love running and when I find excuses not to run like - maybe I should clean the bathroom or do my taxes before I go for my run I know something isn't right and a few easy days are necessary.

[mutk]

adr1an, on 18 May 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

60, 60, 64, 69, 72, 62, 85, 18 (sick), 90, 77.

You may well still be sick you know.. Or at least  not fully recovered.n Something that takes you out from 85 to 18 km in a week must have been reasonably bad. Also the bump back up from 'sick 18km' straight to 90km is a bit rough.  It seems clear to me, drop back to what you were doing before you got sick, and rebuild ?


Cheers

[Davo]

All of the above is very good advice. And you need to keep in mind that you're in only your second year of running. Your body is still getting used to this new regime.
There's an old story about a high school boy who went to his coach and said "I think I could be a good long distance runner. Will you coach me?"
And the coach replied "Go away and run long distances for ten years. Then come back, and we'll talk."
There's no short cuts.

[Arf]

i agree with ponytail used to run 6 days a week and was able to clock up some big weeks when doing marathon prep. When approaching one marathon my legs felt dead and tired but trained on. Ran a great marathon time, took little time off and though I dropped mileage kept runnig 6 days a week and ended up with SF in my femur and a long stint away from running. I am now quite injury prone for lots of reasons. Listen to your body it has a way of telling us things!

[Peterhorse]

agree with the others Adr1an, on the cusp of a problem but excellent to spot and pull it back. might only take 7-10 days and you'll be firing again. looks like the 90k 'shock' factor basically. know it well, had to have 10 days of no running after it back at Easter time, because running fatigued and niggly, i got a hammie strain not being strong enough simply jumping a a gutter. that's all it takes. but skipping a day or turning a 12k run into a 6k-8k easy paced run somewhere can prevent it, or ride the bike (i'm doing one less run replaced with a spin class at present for e.g.) - my program looks a lot like yours actually! i took a 2 days break ealry this week for same reason and feel great and had a nice 18k at sub MP this morning as a result.

[adr1an]

Cheers everyone! Looks like I need to back off a bit. Funnily enough I hit the ice bath post run yesterday, and that seems to have alleviated some of the absolute crushing fatigue. Still no 'bounce' in the muscles, but much better than yesterday.

Appreciate all the insights and advice

[iRonnie]

It is alway a good idea not to make too drastic a change in training.  I think  changing to more hllly work and the extra LT work may not have been absorbed. I assume that this was in preparation  for SMH.  That type of training needs to be done well outside the freshening period for a race.  It is all part of the learning process.

Long term: I think it best to always, always make sure you allow enough time for adaptation.   Recovery between sessions  is also important. But more importantly: gradual change or introduction to new and different sessions will help you avoid fatigue.

A well- structured program that is considers all this is the best way to avoid flattening yourself.

I don't want to come across like a tough guy (i is a bit of a sook really) but there will be times when you will feel tired.  Training on tired legs is good preparation for running long events where you will be running on tired legs.

Runners who more or less taper for every session don't really get a chance to build the kind of fitness that one needs to race and run long distances well.  You can't be fresh for every run.  If we take a day off every time we feel tired, we will adapt to that kind of training.  That doesn't mean we should guts it out: it means we need to take measures to prevent the tiredness becoming heavy fatigue; and we need to learn to tell the difference between helpful "adaptive" tiredness and the more disabling kind.  This can't be taught but is learned from experience.  

Having said that: i use a simple recovery rule..  If i don't recover well enough to run the next hard session as per usual, i guts it out (so long as my niggles are managable).   If i don't run the next hard session as per usual, i ease off.  If i still don't come back for the next hard session , i often go do some trail running or do fartlek instead of timed runs.  If  that doesn't work, i review my training.

It takes a long time learn your bodies limits.  It may be a bit brainless, but you must alway listen to it.

Edited by iRonnie, 19 May 2012 - 03:59 PM.

[adr1an]

iRonnie, on 19 May 2012 - 03:54 PM, said:

It is alway a good idea not to make too drastic a change in training.  I think  changing to more hllly work and the extra LT work may not have been absorbed. I assume that this was in preparation  for SMH.  That type of training needs to be done well outside the freshening period for a race.  It is all part of the learning process.

Long term: I think it best to always, always make sure you allow enough time for adaptation.   Recovery between sessions  is also important. But more importantly: gradual change or introduction to new and different sessions will help you avoid fatigue.

A well- structured program that is considers all this is the best way to avoid flattening yourself.

I don't want to come across like a tough guy (i is a bit of a sook really) but there will be times when you will feel tired.  Training on tired legs is good preparation for running long events where you will be running on tired legs.

Runners who more or less taper for every session don't really get a chance to build the kind of fitness that one needs to race and run long distances well.  You can't be fresh for every run.  If we take a day off every time we feel tired, we will adapt to that kind of training.  That doesn't mean we should guts it out: it means we need to take measures to prevent the tiredness becoming heavy fatigue; and we need to learn to tell the difference between helpful "adaptive" tiredness and the more disabling kind.  This can't be taught but is learned from experience.  

Having said that: i use a simple recovery rule..  If i don't recover well enough to run the next hard session as per usual, i guts it out (so long as my niggles are managable).   If i don't run the next hard session as per usual, i ease off.  If i still don't come back for the next hard session , i often go do some trail running or do fartlek instead of timed runs.  If  that doesn't work, i review my training.

It takes a long time learn your bodies limits.  It may be a bit brainless, but you must alway listen to it.

Thanks iRonnie - extremely useful advice there. I wasn't specifically trying to hit more hills or change my training intentionally, just turned out that way.

Anyway - I did end up taking a complete day off on Saturday prior to the SMH Half, ended up having a great run with a PB of 93:25. I felt so bad this week and then to pull that out and the end surprised the hell out of me. Will see how this week goes, still got the niggles and need to manage recovery with the need to continue training. SMH was never a goal race and was only a late entry.

This has been a great thread for me and have a whole heap of stuff to think about. It is really about learning the limits of your body, pushing it up close to the edge and hoping it doesn't break.

Edited by adr1an, 21 May 2012 - 09:42 AM.

[adr1an]

Ah - found the limit I guess. Knee stopped me from running today. Physio later. What an idiot..

[iRonnie]

Hi adr!an,

I feel bad that i didn't push the importance of after-race recovery.   Aways a good idea to go extra easy for as long as necessary after racing. It can be a very unforgiving sport this running caper.  Here's hoping your injury settles soon.

Best wishes,
Ron.

[vat]

adr1an, on 22 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Ah - found the limit I guess. Knee stopped me from running today. Physio later. What an idiot..

Nah - if you do the same thing again, and the same thing happens, THEN you're an idiot.

\idiot and proud

[Easy Tiger]

You timed that injury well, 5min 1/2 marathon pb, well done mate!

Any increase in training will be hard, your body will adapt over time. At my fittest I can handle 3 hard weeks before a change up week, but normally have 2 hard and 1 change. During winter this normally means 3 high volume weeks with less intensity and the 4th week less volume and high intensity, vice versa during summer. Except leading into and out of goal races I don't feel like I need 'easy' weeks, but the change in training feels like a rest but with the benefit of topping up either speed or endurance.

Too late now, but after a goal race you need to rest. The less you do the better, let your body recover and during rest you'll absorb the effort from the race and the training block.

Congrats again, great reward for your efforts.

[Easy Tiger]

Also, I know you love Canova, 'modulation' is one of his key words. Make sure there is a big variance between session and easy run effort, especially during increases in volume and/or intensity. This will be harder for you while you're adjusting to life in the hills, it'll be worth heading down to the flats occasionally for some easy runs or fast sessions that require rhythm.

vat, on 22 May 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

adr1an, on 22 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Ah - found the limit I guess. Knee stopped me from running today. Physio later. What an idiot..

Nah - if you do the same thing again, and the same thing happens, THEN you're an idiot.

\idiot and proud

Dear Idiot and Proud :-)

Sub 4min km marathon followed by long term injury, would you do it again, no regrets?

Edited by Easy Tiger, 22 May 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[vat]

Easy Tiger, on 22 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Also, I know you love Canova, 'modulation' is one of his key words. Make sure there is a big variance between session and easy run effort, especially during increases in volume and/or intensity. This will be harder for you while you're adjusting to life in the hills, it'll be worth heading down to the flats occasionally for some easy runs or fast sessions that require rhythm.

vat, on 22 May 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

adr1an, on 22 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Ah - found the limit I guess. Knee stopped me from running today. Physio later. What an idiot..

Nah - if you do the same thing again, and the same thing happens, THEN you're an idiot.

\idiot and proud

Dear Idiot and Proud :-)

Sub 4min km marathon followed by long term injury, would you do it again, no regrets?

Yep.  No question.  ;-)

Mind you - I might do a bit more hamstring stretching and core work this time around...

Edited by vat, 22 May 2012 - 09:04 PM.

[Easy Tiger]

vat, on 22 May 2012 - 09:03 PM, said:

Yep.  No question.  ;-)

Mind you - I might do a bit more hamstring stretching and core work this time around...

Exactly what I thought.

[iRonnie]

I need to get around the internet more. I had never heard of Canova before now.
I like his thinking.


Thanks Easy Tiger.

Yeah i have to admit my training diary confirms my idiocy a few times too.  Arrrh well......

Edited by iRonnie, 23 May 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[adr1an]

Easy Tiger, on 22 May 2012 - 07:12 PM, said:

You timed that injury well, 5min 1/2 marathon pb, well done mate! Any increase in training will be hard, your body will adapt over time. At my fittest I can handle 3 hard weeks before a change up week, but normally have 2 hard and 1 change. During winter this normally means 3 high volume weeks with less intensity and the 4th week less volume and high intensity, vice versa during summer. Except leading into and out of goal races I don't feel like I need 'easy' weeks, but the change in training feels like a rest but with the benefit of topping up either speed or endurance. Too late now, but after a goal race you need to rest. The less you do the better, let your body recover and during rest you'll absorb the effort from the race and the training block. Congrats again, great reward for your efforts.

Cheers mate. Went into SMH with the possibility that the knee would fail, luckily enough it got me through well - just paying for it now!

Easy Tiger, on 22 May 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

Also, I know you love Canova, 'modulation' is one of his key words. Make sure there is a big variance between session and easy run effort, especially during increases in volume and/or intensity. This will be harder for you while you're adjusting to life in the hills, it'll be worth heading down to the flats occasionally for some easy runs or fast sessions that require rhythm.

Definitely been trying to do this. The week that did me in I failed to - basically all my runs were done in the hills, and too many of them were done at a faster pace, if not at least a higher heart rate. I think that was the week that had me fatigued and stiff and sore.

iRonnie, on 22 May 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Hi adr!an, I feel bad that i didn't push the importance of after-race recovery. Aways a good idea to go extra easy for as long as necessary after racing. It can be a very unforgiving sport this running caper. Here's hoping your injury settles soon. Best wishes, Ron.

No need to feel bad iRonnie! I may be inexperienced, but I'm an adult and should know by now Actually, I only made it into about 900m of my first run back before the knee said no. Same again today. Physio stuck a whole bunch of needles into my glutes, probably just need a bit more rest and hopefully I'll be good to go soon.

You've got me watching Canova videos now. He mentions that at some point he's giving his guys workouts which take 5 days to recover from!

cheers,

Adrian