37 replies to this topic

[Action]

Now that CR has well over 3,000 members, and it is being recognised as a central resource for running in Australia, I was wondering about where CoolRunning might be in, say, 5 years time?  Kev runs a tight ship as a benevolent dictator, but I am quite sure he is open to a robust discussion of where to from here.  Should CR branch out into sports management, could it form a real world club rather than being a denizen of cyberspace, perhaps a commercial venture, or be a portal for real world running clubs - or stay as it is.... dunno.  Thoughts?    :)  

PS - what a time for Phantom to retire, this is right up his alley!   ;)  

What do you think?

[MikeIafeta]

Action ... Love ya work!!!  :D  

The CoolRunning site has done more for me (and peolple like me)than anyone will ever know!!!

IMHO, CR should branch out as an 'INSPIRATIONAL SITE'.

Somewhere ... just a normal person like me can come here to CR, and know ... that there will always be 'COOLRUNNERS' always here willing to help!

There are soooooo many people here (whether they know it or not) who have inspired people like me to get off their arses and do what we now do now!!! and thats just to run because we can ...

CR RULES!!!

I cannot stress enough, the 'INSTRUMENTAL' impact that CoolRunning has had on my life.

God Bless CoolRunning ... And God Bless COOL_RUNNERS!!!  :D

[Mister G]

If "inspirational" is no longer the most overused/abused word on this forum, it'll be a good start....

[Kato]

In the spirit of debate...
How about expert articles paid for by sponsorship or subscription?  Training programs, online coaching, specific races and challenges addressed...
Oh wait a minute, we already get that!

[James M]

Action
While I can see the advantages of broadening the scope of Coolrunning and taking it to the next stage there would be a number of changes that would be necessary. I am sure that if the site was set up on a commercial basis there are costs for staff, office space, and that huge ugly “insurance”   :)  to name a few.

I can only imagine how much time Kevin and others must put into keeping the site going, if it goes commercial would, for example, somebody be employed full time by the “company/association/club/whatever” and if so then we get into the realms of membership fees, advertising and sponsorship and what about the legal liability for posts on the web site. Could Coolrunning cover these costs and still remain an independent source of information and enjoyment for the running community at large.

Jim

[halfforward]

Im all for progress and expanding ones boundries , but, often taking ventures to the commercial level can have the effect of killing it off. The CR site is excellent for checking in , giving and getting advice and finding out all sorts of useful information for upcoming events and results of past ones. I would hate to see this die off because of commercial restraints. Sherwood Forest run on a saturday morning in brizzy is free to all and you can donate a gold coin if you like [ most of this goes to charity I believe] they regularly have 80 to 100 runners every Sat and up to 150 starters sometimes , school coachs use it to run their charges and old blokes like me to tune up on speed , but, if there was a fee or charge involved , Im betting the numbers would drop off a fair bit . Just my 2 cents worth ....happy running  ;)

[lebusqp]

If it's not broke don't fix it....  B)

[FakePlasticTrees]

Action, if this turned into a real world club, wouldn't that impact on Striders membership.   :D  

There is some other stuff I would like to see such as a FAQ, and a forum where favourite runs can be submitted, plus some other stuff, but as I understand such things Kevin may be a step ahead of me there   ;)  Sorry if I'm giving too much away Kevin.

[42.195]

If you fully explore the main menu and the links section (which I'm guilty of not doing!) it pretty much seems to be all there.
It is truly an excellent site and I have nothing but admiration for everyone who contributes to running the site.
Websites come and go, but Coolrunning seems to be very stable and is hopefully here to stay forever... or until a supervirus finally wipes out the internet once and for all.
Even though we disagree with each other on occasions, there is no doubt that it is a great place to learn and teach others from our own experiences.
I think that shoe retailers/manufacturers are missing out on a big chunk of their market by not advertising on this site (paid for of course, because in this case they would be trying 100% to sell their product!!). It is a so far untapped market resource.
On a slightly facetious note, how about mounting webcams on the heads of Coolrunners during runs and providing pay per view live web cam action during marathons, ultramarathons and fun runs??!!?? You could even be able to switch from runner to runner to cover all aspects of the race.

[Action]

gnscon, dual citizenship is actively encouraged! Rumour has it that the presidents of two of the major Sydney running clubs contribute to CR regularly.

Kato, we certainly get that - expert opinion and experience that is priceless... but who does pay the bills?

halfforward, commercialising would not be nice, and would affect the ethos of the site, but perhaps an arms length association that generates some revenue may be possible?  

lebusqp, it may not be broken now, but if Kev got hit by that big Volvo runner hunting truck then CR would certainly be in strife.

With a member base this big, there may be some great ideas lurking out there in CR land which would put CR on a more stable long term footing...

Disclaimer:  I did have a coffee with Kev recently on this very topic and so am not treading on his toes too much with this thread   :D

[Pelican]

I've been involved with a Rugby Club during the change from Amateur to professionlism.   Our club chose to stay amateur to ensure the ethos and culture was not change.   You want to be either play rugby or more importantly run because you enjoy it.   That aside, each year to raise funds we hold an annual corporate luncheon which this year generated about $15K profit that went directly back into the club to ensure the continued growth and viability.    Imagine having a CR luncheon at each capital city in Australia.   The question then is what to do with the funds.   Do you promote CR, promote Running in general ?

[26miles]

I'm surprised no one has thought of the CR fun run. Perhaps a race in each state ?

On another thought, I would happily pay a small amount each year to contribute to the running of this site i.e. a membership fee, with perhaps some discounts for members at shoe/running shops etc.
I would also like to see some more articles re training advice etc with an Australian perspective rather than the usual American stuff.
Perhaps our elite level coaches,runners etc could be encouraged (financially ??) to contribute in this regard.

I like the way Dan Green has set up 28racingteam with his constant updates about what out top athletes are up to. Most runners I know love this stuff. It's great to read about mileage they do and type of training etc.

Otherwise, keep up the good work Kev and team.

[Stu Mac]

Whilst I love the site and I love the community that it creates I would question the amount of 'real' members.  As at 27 Jul 04, CR has had 3366 people join its community, now I know the 'forum' is not the only part of the site but it is the close to the heart of it.  Currently there are 3 members who have posted 1000 + responses , 8 members between 500-1000, 10 members 300-500, 17 members in the 200s and approximately 70 members in the 100s.  The numbers of posts alone are not a indication of a persons experience or quality (just look at my numbers), but I do believe that there are approx 2800 members who have posted 20 times or less and this is not even taking into account when they last posted.  My rambling is trying to remind everyone that we probably only have 400-500 current members.
But where do I want to see the organisation go, well I'm not very sure, I love advertising the site to other runners, I wear my CR singlet with pride and I enjoy the friends I have made on this site and expecially the ones I have meet as a result of this site.  But would I want to pay a membership, I probably would because I have enjoyed my experiences.  Sports management, Action do you mean CR looking after elite to sub-elite - I don't think so, or do you mean Event Management, ie. organising Races, yes I think this would be an excellent concept.
Action, you made a statement,    

quote:

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lebusqp, it may not be broken now, but if Kev got hit by that big Volvo runner hunting truck then CR would certainly be in strife.

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, well the CR community need to look at that!!! One person shouldn't be indispensable...   :)  

I think this subject is very worthy of thought and I intend to go away and have a better think..., but I would like to see the members who haven't posted for many years to be removed from our thinkings.

Stuart

[Don Juan]

Just a few thoughts on generating revenue. There is potential for increasing advertising by continuing to offer flat rates or a per customer referral rate.

In particular, I suspect there is demand from coolrunners for advice and products from:
sports doctors
dietitions
physiotherapists
podiatrists
chiropractors
Vitamin stores
-   who could advertise on the site.

You can also buy drugs on-line these days so a coolrunning health store or preferred supplier could  fill orders for nutritional supplements and vitamins, 'the clear' and other good stuff.

Preferred suppliers would also work with products like body-glide where the supply can be outsourced.

It would help to gauge demand of course.

[FiIK]

Don Juan,

When you say advertise on the site, do you mean the page or in the forum itself? The wealth of untainted knowledge in this forum is staggering and I would hate to see that change by being filled with threads that end up like demtel infomercials.
As far as I can see and I will admit that when it comes to web pages I'm a Ludite, there is already space for commercial contributors to advertise or even set up links to their own sites.
I agree the only thing constant is change but how fast?

[MPHinLondon]

How's about a CoolRunning pin up calendar to bring in some cash?  :)

You can just see it now, Kev as Mr March, running through the trails of Bewora, Mr G as Mr September, sweating like a beast under the scorching heat at Glasshouse, we could have Pasty in his ski outfit in the snow for Mr July to make it all wintery..it would make a killing!

I'm sure plenty of male CRs would step up to fulfil the inevitable demand. Who would step up for the female side though?? Blonde girl perhaps??

[Jogger]

I didn't really want to partake in this discussion, as I have a clear bias, but I wanted to highlight that the discussion is wider than "should CR become profit-making" or how to make extra money.

I am quite OK with it continuing as it is (non-profit making) but currently the site is owned by a sole trading company (CoolRunning Sports Company) with me as the sole trader and therefore I carry ALL legal and financial risk ie if someone took us to court I would lose my house!

It is a statement of fact that 90% of the effort to maintain the site is mine. 100% of the finances are mine. I am doing the last couple of years tax returns now and am happy to disclose those. Off the top of my head 2003-2004 looks like being about $35000 costs and $25000 income with $10000 stock on hand.

What I am keen to explore is a way of making sure that the site can contine without such massive input by me alone.

In the last 18months I have "recruited" about 10 people as "helpers" on condition that they are free to come and go as they please and all the finances are mine and all the liability etc. This definitely helps, but at the end of the day it is still me stressing out about whether it will all work, and who is going to pay for it.

Maybe we could make the site a co-operative but legally this still requires (according to NSW law) 5 people to sign up and be committed (from a legal sense).

A good example here is that there is currently about $10,000 of CR stock in my house that I have had to pay for up front.

The (tongue in cheek) suggestion above of a calendar, as a good example, requires someone to run the project and finance it (before one calendar is sold) and then keep an eye on it to make sure it does not lose $000s. Ditto bumper stickers.

Those people still waiting for the six foot track results book will know that I cannot keep taking projects on.

So, keep those ideas coming.

At the end of the day I still want CR to still be functioning well after I am dead and buried, whether its of natural causes at age 110 or sooner eg the bus.

[MPHinLondon]

Like 26 said, I would happily pay a membership fee to keep the site running and stop the Tiller family from becoming financially defunct. But if that all sounds too commercialised, does anybody know anything about the PayPal scheme, where you can just donate money to the site? I don’t know how successful these schemes are, but one person fronting his time, effort and money for the sake of the whole of the running community isn't really tenable.

I also like the CR fun run idea with a decent entry fee, proceeds going to CR. A 20ker through a top Bewora trail for NSW sounds ok.

[Colin Townsend]

Some of the issues mentioned above touch on some of what we have considered at Woodstock during the last few years.

Rather than having companies/places pay to advertise on our site, we've tried the tack of a rebate from people/businesses, where someone has used their services.

For example, member A owns a holiday property. If member B stays at A's property, then A gives 10% of the rental value to the club. A is happy because the property would have otherwise been vacant, & B stays somewhere which benefits the club, & supports the member who is supporting the club.

This process is currently in place with two investment properties, a baby goods shop, a mortgage broker, & a member who makes gift cards.

It's still in the early stages, but this has generated around $500-$600 for the club in the last 18 months or so.

The set-up cost/time is next to nothing, & both sides win.

Is this something that CR could adopt?

Colin

[wilbur]

CoolRunning.com.au IS the future.....
Think back to the days when you had to wait for Fun Runner magazine to come out with info that was six weeks out of date before you read it....Long live coolrunning.......

[Don Juan]

FiLK, I had not thought through the ad possibilities, but you raise some more alternatives.

There's even a new advertising channel in the UK being launched.
The technology to produce a video infomercial can't be far away from Greensborough either.

I'm sure a new section for ads or coolrunner rebates could be kept separate from posts.

[Vinny]

Greetings

From the comments so far, the main issues when confronting this matter appear to be, but are not limited to:

Financial viability
Legal liability management
Content/data management
Administrator succession
Coolrunning - beyond the web

Without getting too bureaucratic, the answer may lie in forming some form of working group to determine a future plan which we can all contribute to.

The operational part of that plan should attempt to at least address some of the issues above and others that perhaps should be added.

I would hope that there was enough talent within the posters/visitors to this site who could provide valuable (ie free) counsel when the first draft of a plan is tabled for commentary.

Maybe this is not what was envisaged, but there could be some useful outcomes regardless if this kind of process could be managed.

Regards.

[Pelican]

Has there been any thought as to setting up CR as an "Incorporated Association" and running along the lines of a sporting club.   You are still able to continue as a non-profit organisation and do not have to worry about G.S.T etc ( if the turn-over remains as it is ), but could then take out the appropriate liability insurance to cover yourself.   Even if you decide to expand and charge membership fees, run races, providing the profits are going back into the club, you don't have a problem.

[Colin Townsend]

Could do the AGM via a webcast  B)

[wombatface]

As Pelican suggested, incorporation is the way to go. That way if someone takes legal action against coolrunning the director/s and board members cannot be bankrupted. That is the reason why we incorporated our athletics club many years ago.

As far as 'membership' goes, you could probably get away with a nominal membership fee ($10 per year?) for people who wish to use the messageboard. Perhaps run a poll to gauge reaction?

Regarding advertising - my suggestion would be to sell space in the right column of the message board for 'vertical banners'. At present users who are reading down through messages have no advertising in view on their screen at all. An add in the RH column may catch the reader's eye.

I would be aiming to sell this advertising space to major corporations - mobile phone companies, shoe companies etc.

[MikeIafeta]

quote:

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That way if someone takes legal action against coolrunning the director/s and board members cannot be bankrupted.

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Do not hesitate to send these people DIRECTLY to me. I'm pretty good at breaking things  ;)  

Some great ideas Team! Wish I had the brains to come up with something to help. I haven't, but I am happy to support this great site!!!  :D

[Niftyone]

Does all this mean that Coolrunning is getting too big for its running shoes. Mr Tiller and his band of enthusiastic helpers have certainly done a great job of promoting running and with the national phobia about health going on it will only get bigger. Thw day we see Mr Howard posting a question about the Canberra Marathon cannot be far away. Anyway,how does the American Coolrunning site keep itself going? Is it privately funded like ours? There is a site called Schoolfriends.com or something like that and they charge a nominal fee($20.00 a year)and you can chat to all your old school mates,if you want to and that seems to work for them.Maybe Kevin could e-mail them to find out how they do it. There will be an answer,somewhere. Anyway,keep on runnin'  :unsure:

[Jogger]

I hadn't thought about making it an association (by definition a non-profit). I know what's involved - this year I set up the Six Foot Track Marathon Association.

I was thinking more on the co-op lines.

Regardless, either option needs people to signup on a dotted line for some role or other. You can't have one person running it by definition.

I am against charging people to gain access to the site as it fails my test of "is this what I would want from my favourite runnng site ?"

Although a few hard-core people would pay, a lot wouldn't bother.

I also wanted to comment on Stu Macs comment on "member numbers". He may be right about the number of "members" that are registered and actively post to the messageboards.

I am not over interested in member numbers - I have met heaps of people that tell me that they read every word of the site but never post (and are probably not even registered). These people are important too and I treat them as CoolRunners as much as anyone.

You are a CoolRunner if you read CoolRunning even if you haven't registered or posted anything. Well that's my view anyway.

If we wanted more money we could take more advertising, but I am quite pleased that we only have good quality ads on here. I am not even sure I want Google text-ads even if they were restricted to running. Certainly I do knock back ads for all sorts of garbage.

What do others think about ads - would you like ads for mobile phone companies, google-ads and what-not ?

[Colin Townsend]

If the additional income was in some way applied to improve the site (software), ease the burdon on adminstrators, or improve the long term viability, then a few ad's are fairly easy to tolerate.

[Jogger]

quote:

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Originally posted by Stu Mac:
My rambling is trying to remind everyone that we probably only have 400-500 current members.

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I was thinking about the same but just worked out how to use the info in the system, and it indicates that there are 1095 indivuduals that have posted at least one message between 1-Jan-2004 and just now.

Wow that's neat. I suspect that the readership is way way higher. I would eastimate at least 3 or 4 times that number check in on at least a weekly timeframe.

We are averaging approx 4000 unique visits per day - 28,000 per week.

[RMC]

quote:

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by KevinT. What do others think about ads - would you like ads for mobile phone companies, google-ads and what-not  

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I hate too many ads not related to the website you are viewing. So for Coolrunning I don't mind ads that are relevant to running.

Hey I'm almost one of those top 10 posters of all time on this messageboard (500+ posts).

[rebuz]

How about a voluntary annual donation - and if you donate your profile is marked as 'supporter' - that would be incentive for many, and still not block access to people who don't want to donate.

Re advertising: go for it, but I would suggest keeping it relevant to running interests (and no popups   :)  

Oh - and THANK YOU Kevin for this site!!!!

[Luckylegs]

quote:

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We are averaging approx 4000 unique visits per day - 28,000 per week.  

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Great!  That should just about see me through..... "Till the Clouds Roll By..." (movie  1946! )
   LL

[MikeIafeta]

Here is a stupid idea from me (sorry if I upset).

Anywayz ... there are companies out there (BIG COMPANIES!!!) who like to pay people like me and YOU to fill in surveys and the like ...

Perhaps, CR can ... well like I said, it's a stupid idea ...  :unsure:

[plu]

Hi All,

I feel out of my league in this post and I saw it when it first came up. However I want to contribute.

I have belonged, for 12 years, as a council member, to an incorporated association which is registered as a charity.  Even with in this framework it is important to not hide behind the structure and be throroughly transparent and accountable - not that anything CR might do would be anything but. However, there is a lot of work involved.

All I know is that to cover our decisions our insurance premiums have gone up on a regular basis. CR would be required to draw up a Constitution and each year (I think) present a report or case which maintains the charitable status etc.  

There are a number of hoops that an association has to jump to maintain charitable status and the tax benefits that come from this.  There are others that would know more about this than me.

All I know is that I have a duty of care to take the meetings very seriously and once I have chosen to abstain from  a vote (which had a financial impact on the association)because I did not really understand the issues.

I just thought I would throw in these thoughts.

Plu

I have come back for a quick edit.  I mean I am  in a non profit association (still has hoops to jump)that for a while tried to gain charitable status.

[MikeIafeta]

...or...how about a CoolRunning Lotto Syndicate???

They usually give plenty of notice when there's a HUGE Multi-Million Dollar Draw.

All who are keen could put in a 'fiver' each. Two bucks from each 'fiver' could be a donation to CoolRunnings Operational costs and the rest of the pooled funds goes towards our Lotto Syndicate.

If we had say 100-odd in the Lotto Syndicate with perhaps 6 or 7 BIG draws a year, that could be a tidy little sum for CR.  :D  

And if we ever won??? Well ... that's a whole new post on its own  :D

[MikeIafeta]

ps. sorry ... that's the best I could do on my limited IQ  :unsure:

[wombatface]

I'm with enzuber - "if you donate your profile is marked as 'supporter'".

The minimum donation would be?? (any suggestions). You may get 400x $10 average = $4,000. That would look good on the balance sheet.

Perhaps 'Coolsupporter'? (in a nice green colour)