9 replies to this topic

[StephenWard9]

Hi,

I've been working on my running form over the last 6 weeks - using my gluts more, keeping my feet beneath my thighs following a gait analysis with Brian Martin at RUnningTechniqueCoach in Melb.

The last week, I've started to become aware of a side to side movement while I run. It feels like when my feet are in contact with the ground, i then push back and outwards to the side. It's kind of hard to describe but it feels like the movement is in a diagonal direction across the body. I've made some improvements already in my feet landing beneath my thighs rather than along the midline but maybe there is more work to do there and they can be further apart.

I've been doing some strengthening work through squats, bridging, and prone leg raises etc. Does anyone have any other suggestions? It it the hip adductors that control this lateral movement - should i be working with them?

[runningphysio]

This diagonal movement you describe may very well be because your lacking pelvic control, resulting in increased lateral movement of the pelvis. This is then relayed down the chain. Ensure you are doing substantial single leg work (i.e. squats, theraband abduction, clam) focusing on maintain a stable pelvis throughout.

I'd suggest you also consider utilising some open chain exercises because it sounds like you're doing mainly closed chain stuff at the moment. If your adductors significantly outweigh the abductors, during the swing through phase your leg will excessively cross the midline. Hence a healthy balance between adductor and abductor strength is vital. Unfortunately it is hard to predict this over a forum.........

[StephenWard9]

I've just looked up the meaning of open chain / closed chain exercises and you're right - I seem to be doing mostly closed chain stuff. What would be some open chain exercises for the abductors then? I've got access to gym equipment by the way...

Could you explain why open chain exercises are important too as the closed chain ones seem to mimic the movements done in running more closely and use several muscles?

[runningphysio]

As a starting point you perform some combined abduction/external rotation/extension theraband or cable exercises. The swing leg (i.e. not the stance leg) is pulled sideways, whilsts also externally rotating the leg and extending the hip by say 10deg. This also helps to fire your glut max, in addition to the abductors by the sideways movement. The beauty of this is that you are also working the stance leg in a closed chain position.

Closed chain exercises are arguably more important than open however open chain exercises tend to be completely forgotten. Basically, you can perform all the closed chain exercises in the world (i.e. squat based things) but if you are striking the ground incorrectly in the first palce, the stresses through the body during stance (i.e. a closed chain position) will be much larger then you have trained with your closed chain exercises. By ensuring you have good open chain control during the swing, you are more likely to eliminate any unwanted medial-lateral movement in the air (conserving energy) as well as landing in a more desirable position (i.e. less likely to criss-cross the legs).

Is this making sense?

[StephenWard9]

Yup - It's making perfect sense. I'll include some of the Theraband abduction exercises you describe (these are Monster walking exercises right?)

Thanks for your input ...

[Mile27]

BornToRunFree, on 21 June 2012 - 04:00 PM, said:

As a starting point you perform some combined abduction/external rotation/extension theraband or cable exercises. The swing leg (i.e. not the stance leg) is pulled sideways, whilsts also externally rotating the leg and extending the hip by say 10deg. This also helps to fire your glut max, in addition to the abductors by the sideways movement. The beauty of this is that you are also working the stance leg in a closed chain position.

Closed chain exercises are arguably more important than open however open chain exercises tend to be completely forgotten. Basically, you can perform all the closed chain exercises in the world (i.e. squat based things) but if you are striking the ground incorrectly in the first palce, the stresses through the body during stance (i.e. a closed chain position) will be much larger then you have trained with your closed chain exercises. By ensuring you have good open chain control during the swing, you are more likely to eliminate any unwanted medial-lateral movement in the air (conserving energy) as well as landing in a more desirable position (i.e. less likely to criss-cross the legs).

Is this making sense?

I'd like to put forward a slightly alternative theory - what happens in the air - swing leg - is determined primarily as a result of what happens on the ground.
How well the glutes, abductors , hamstrings etc load eccentrically upon landing will govern what happens to them in swing phase so to correct swing phase problems it is necessary to train the eccentric loading phase first and then move into swing phase.

There will be an effect of both legs during the swing phase , ie if the right leg is swinging forward - its motion will be governed by what happened in the previous landing phase of the right leg and also what is happening on the left leg.

For example if when the left leg lands the hips tilt down on the right side then this will affect how well the right leg swings forward.

During the swing phase there is actually little muscle activation occurring in the glutes ( except just prior to end swing position ) so it makes very little sense to train the glutes to work during swing phase when this doesn't occur when running .

Doing theraband abduction exercises which train the glutes to become stronger concentrically with the foot off the ground is the complete opposite of what happens when you run, ie working eccentrically when the foot is on the ground so I don't understand the rational for using that type of exercise.

I agree that completely that closed chain exercises like squats aren't as effective as they could be since there is no landing force but disagree that open chain exercises using concentric contractions with a theraband is an effective solution.

[adr1an]

Stephen, I'm sure Brian would be willing to help you out further.

I've been mostly working on the same exercises as you, (from Brians book) except for the monster walk, and am feeling better for it. Already getting better hip/knee coordination and strength after just a few weeks.

It sounds like you are trying to move away from having your feet strike on a central line to more of each foot falling beneath the hip? Maybe it's justs from consciously trying to alter your form that's making it feel like you are moving laterally.

Are you having a follow up gait analysis?

[runningphysio]

Mile27 - The reason i suggested combined ER/abd/ext theraband exercises is that electromyography studies shoe the adductors to be considerably active during the swing phase. The adductors can also medial rotate the femur. Therefore it makes sense that if this is a problem (and it is only a possibility, i'm not saying it is the cause of stephenward7 problem) it is worthwhile trying to address the problem.

The glutes dont just act as extenders of the hip, they are also the most important and most powerful external rotator of the hip. In the swing phase this is done concentrically, whilst in the stance phase this is done eccentrically. Therefore, if excessive internal rotation/adduction of the swing leg is a problem, it is a sound rationale to utilise theraband activation exercises, particularly because it also facilitates stability in the stance leg.

The swing phase makes up 40% of the gait cycle. Therefore it is naive to consider it irrelevant. With that said, each person should be considered individually and perhaps their stance eccentric control through stance may indeed fix the problem. However in stephens case, i merely suggested he try and open chain exercise as well as it appeared he was not doing any. Certainly cannot cause harm.

[Mile27]

BornToRunFree, on 22 June 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

Mile27 - The reason i suggested combined ER/abd/ext theraband exercises is that electromyography studies shoe the adductors to be considerably active during the swing phase. The adductors can also medial rotate the femur. Therefore it makes sense that if this is a problem (and it is only a possibility, i'm not saying it is the cause of stephenward7 problem) it is worthwhile trying to address the problem.

The glutes dont just act as extenders of the hip, they are also the most important and most powerful external rotator of the hip. In the swing phase this is done concentrically, whilst in the stance phase this is done eccentrically. Therefore, if excessive internal rotation/adduction of the swing leg is a problem, it is a sound rationale to utilise theraband activation exercises, particularly because it also facilitates stability in the stance leg.

The swing phase makes up 40% of the gait cycle. Therefore it is naive to consider it irrelevant. With that said, each person should be considered individually and perhaps their stance eccentric control through stance may indeed fix the problem. However in stephens case, i merely suggested he try and open chain exercise as well as it appeared he was not doing any. Certainly cannot cause harm.

I Agree adductors are active during swing phase but the abductors aren't. Therefore training the abductors with a theraband in open chain seems fairly pointless.

Yes the glutes are responsible for more than hip flexion . The most important function of the glutes is to  control Flexion , internal rotation and Adduction.

I disagree that they work concentrically during swing phase , EMG studies have shown very little activity in the glutes during swing phase. This is primarily due to the actual function of the glutes in running is to load eccentrically into Flexion, internal rotation and Adduction and then explode out of that in the stance phase. Once the leg is set in motion, momentum drives the action

Hence training the glutes concentrically doesn't make a lot of sense when they don't work this way during swing phase in running.

The swing phase isn't irrelevant but what happens in the swing phase for most muscles is determined during stance phase. ( with a few notable exceptions - Adduction and tib ant )

Correct training of the muscles during stance phase will set up optimal motion in the swing phase.

So if excess Adduction is occurring during swing phase I would look at glute function during stance phase. I would also look at how well the hip flexors are being loaded , some of the adductors can help flex the hip so if the hip flexors aren't being loaded properly during stance phase then the adductors may be working to concentrically help flex the hip and therefore the femur will Adduct during swing.

Correcting the faulty loading pattern of the hip flexors will remedy the problem.

I cant think of why we would want to train the glutes to be better at concentric external rotation and abduction since this never happens in running.

The only benefit of theraband exercises is for the stance leg but even then I don't think it is an effective ( or should I say there are far more effective ways) way of improving stance leg as the is no eccentric loading

[StephenWard9]

Hi adr1an, I'll have a follow up gait analysis with Brian in a few weeks.I've already definetely improved my running in that I'm not running so much along the centre line as I was before so Im definetely seeing some benefit already from the exercises. I was beginning to think I had my form sorted then started to become aware of this lateral movement and that's got to be slowing me down and putting unnecessary stress on my legs...