17 replies to this topic

[runningphysio]

I've been having this discussion with some mates recently. Among the running and triathlon ranks, a juicy topic is always whats hot in the way of training/racing accessories. Of utmost importance is footwear! So often i hear (and read on numerous threads on the website) of people training and racing in vastly different shoes. For the best part, I am quite amazed by this. The age old addict of "train the way you play" seems to be lost amongst runners. I understand the most common argument to this is that racing shoes do not have enough cushioning/support to log many miles in. To this - train the body to adapt.

My main concern when training and racing in different footwear is as follows: the running technique usually changes depending on the footwear - albeit minor changes. If all the training is completed in one shoe (thereby building strength and coordination for this particular foot strike/loading pattern/loading rate/etc), and a different shoe is adopted for race day (a one off day whereby the intensity is dramatically increased thereby increasing the loading rates and altering the loading patterns) is this not a MAJOR risk of injury? All of a sudden the body must function in a way that it is not completely used to, at a much higher intensity then it is used to. To answer my own question - yes this IS a major injury risk!

What are your thoughts? How do you all accommodate this factor?

Cheers,
BTRF

[pjay]

After failing to find a satisfactory google entry, I cannot really give much insight into your vexing questions.

I suppose as racing flats are lighter than trainers and as a race is faster than a training run slightly different biomechanics may apply for the duration of the race thus minimising any shoe-related injuries.

[KiaKaha]

well for triathletes its all about the gear.. lots of mid life crisis going on there rofl. so maybe runners are a bit the same but as we have little gear they play with shoes.

after all we dont have all that flashy lyca pseudo sponsors gear to run around in rofl

[churchie11]

I find this curious too.

Some people have said to get "fast" shoes i.e. racing flats, and do you speed workouts in them That way you are used to them and you associate the lighter shoes with speed - therefore getting a psychological boost in races.

I agree with this for short distances, but I wouldn't want different shoes for a long race.

Just my thoughts. YMMV

[Tony123]

Its an interesting question.  Its probably good to do some speedwork in your racing shoes.  But I am not sure if you need to do all your speedwork in them.

You have to balance out the possible gains of getting used to the racing flats against the risk of getting more injuries due to training in less supportive shoes

[Tapatia32]

I bought some light shoes (Saucony Fastwitch) for a marathon.
Before the marathon I used them for two speed sessions,one 35km run and raced a half marathon in them.
They were fine on race day,felt really light.Afterward my feet were a little sore for a couple of days but I'd expect that running 42k in light shoes.
I kinda liked the idea that I was used to doing all the training miles in 'heavy' runners and then on race day could come out and feel light and fast...maybe all in my head

[runningphysio]

Tony123, on 30 June 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Its an interesting question.  Its probably good to do some speedwork in your racing shoes.  But I am not sure if you need to do all your speedwork in them.

You have to balance out the possible gains of getting used to the racing flats against the risk of getting more injuries due to training in less supportive shoes

This thought process of "support is necessary" is hands down the most common argument people bring up with me when i discuss barefoot running. I would like to share with you this study http://www.trtreads....e_Selection.pdf

Basically for the past 30+ years health professionals have been shovelling supportive shoes down our throats with absolutely zero evidence. I am the first to say that evidence based is not the be all and end all however when you combine the ever continual prescription of supportive footwear, the increase in injury rates and the stagnant in western performance over the past 30 years........something is a miss is it not?

So my question back to you is this......are you sure your risk of injury will increase with a less supportive shoe?

Tapatia32, on 30 June 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

I bought some light shoes (Saucony Fastwitch) for a marathon.
Before the marathon I used them for two speed sessions,one 35km run and raced a half marathon in them.
They were fine on race day,felt really light.Afterward my feet were a little sore for a couple of days but I'd expect that running 42k in light shoes.
I kinda liked the idea that I was used to doing all the training miles in 'heavy' runners and then on race day could come out and feel light and fast...maybe all in my head

I also like the idea of 'heavy' training compared with race day, although i'd be inclined to alter the surface (i.e. grass) instead of the footwear. Some mates of mine used to do it to great success as track runners. They would train all season on a grass track and then race on syntehetic. Worked a treat.

[Grechy]

I have had an injury caused by not training in the shoes that I used for racing. It was ok for shorter races but when I tried a half marathon I quickly learnt a lesson. I also found that training in racing flats needs to happen gradually. If you are not used to them and you then start using them for every hard session then may have problems. You need to slowly adapt.

[Tony123]

BornToRunFree, on 01 July 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

So my question back to you is this......are you sure your risk of injury will increase with a less supportive shoe?

Simple answer is no.  But, I'm currently injured with PF - and I'm putting that down to too many training runs in racing flats.  
But, who is to know if I may have got PF anyway with more supportive shoes.

[Tony123]

Tony123, on 01 July 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

BornToRunFree, on 01 July 2012 - 09:49 AM, said:

So my question back to you is this......are you sure your risk of injury will increase with a less supportive shoe?

Simple answer is no.  But, I'm currently injured with PF - and I'm putting that down to too many training runs in racing flats.  
But, who is to know if I may have got PF anyway with more supportive shoes.

I should add that my "supportive" shoes are Nike Pegasus.  I dont run in the shoes with pronation control.

[Jason M]

Interesting BTRF. Think I'll be following the discussions on this thread. Of course there will be many different views including everything from barefoot advocates to those who always train/race in the same shoes to those who mix it up. I'll put up what I do that I find successful for me into the mix.

In short I use a variety of shoes. Each week I run in 3-4 different shoes. These include a trail shoe, lightweight trainer, basic cushioned road runner and racing flats. Which shoe depends on the type of run, the terrain and also how my legs (usually the lower musculature) are feeling.

Speed work/sprints/fast race pace time trials usually get the racing flats. Which is the Brooks T7 racer. I race in this shoe in everything except trail races up to and including marathon. This shoe just feels fast. By far my favourite. I'd love to train more in it, but it won't survive the mileage or the rougher terrain I get into.

Long trail runs or rough terrain hill training get the trail shoe. Grip & durability are the main reason.

Most other runs get the lighter trainer. Asics DS Trainer at the moment.

The cushioned shoes I tend put on when my legs feel really beaten up. They allow me to get some training in but seem to let a lot of recovery take place too. I wouldn't be able to keep up the mileage if I continued with the other shoes on runs like this.

The variety seems to help reduce the injuries by providing some variability to the loading. I feel sticking with just the single shoe in training in the past has been one of the strong contributing factors to overuse injuries.

Further I would point I agree that training in one shoe and just saving racing flats for race day is likely to lead to problems. Defintely to do some training in the race shoe. How much? Well that's open to argument.

[southy]

_{I'm with Jason. I have a variety of shoes, but mainly stick to about 4 different pairs. I have supportive trail runners I use for longer slower runs on the trails (Trabuca, love the traction on the soles) , supportive trainers (Brooks Adrenaline) that I use for longer slower runs that involve a fair amount of concrete or bitumen, and racers for grass & dirt (NB101) and track (spikes).
I tend to need more support for slower paces (as evidenced by video tape at the pods) but less for faster paces. So I do all my intervals & faster tempo runs (usually all run on grass or dirt) in my races and all my longer slower runs in heavier trainers with more support.
Works for me.
I would never race in shoes that I had not done a considerable amout of training in though.}

[HillsAths1]

To me this seems like a Dorothy Dixer question to draw out responses that support (how appropriate) running in minimalist shoes.

People race in racing shoes because you can run faster in them.

People train in trainers because they are for training and as mentioned give support, absorb more shock than racers and are generally more comfortable to wear on a long run.

In regards to the evidence, I have not seen anything in 30 years that this sceptic would make me want to switch 100% to barefoot or minimalist footwear.

If what you say is true about train as you race why do so many Tri's use flippers, paddles, floaties etc in training?  You cant use them in races.

[SpecBGT]

What I am running will determine the shoe that I wear. However, I use only one shoe (on each foot for the smart arses out there) for long road runs and racing. At the moment, it is the Inov8 Bare X Lite 150. I use VFF Bikila and an old pair of Inov8 Bare X 200s for shorter road runs. On the trail I am using VFF Kimodosport and Inov8 Bare Grip 200. That's what is working for me at the moment.

[runningphysio]

HillsAths1, on 02 July 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

To me this seems like a Dorothy Dixer question to draw out responses that support (how appropriate) running in minimalist shoes.

People race in racing shoes because you can run faster in them.

People train in trainers because they are for training and as mentioned give support, absorb more shock than racers and are generally more comfortable to wear on a long run.

In regards to the evidence, I have not seen anything in 30 years that this sceptic would make me want to switch 100% to barefoot or minimalist footwear.

If what you say is true about train as you race why do so many Tri's use flippers, paddles, floaties etc in training?  You cant use them in races.

Firstly, the question was to get some input into this issue, not to support minimalist footwear. I train/race in minimalist footwear so it makes sense for me to bring it up does it not?

Last time i checked...flippers, paddles, floaties, etc are commonly used for drills, thereby focusing on technique. There is no comparison to be made between those drill devices and "trainers"

[runningphysio]

TheBananaGirl, on 08 July 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

Great discussion I'm contemplating what to do in this area myself. I've definitely got to work up to training in minimalist shoes so I'm going to start walking around in my vibrams for a start. I do my speed sessions/races in my Nike Lunar racers but they are giving me bunions because they taper at the toe and squash my broad foot :-/ So I'm switching to a wider toe Mizuno Elixir 7 and hoping to do almost all my training in them.

BornToRunFree, what are your thoughts on barefoot/minimalist shoes on concrete? I find it hard to avoid the concrete around here but seeing there is no concrete in nature I can see it giving me injuries eventually if I don't.

My thoughts on this are contrary to a lot of barefoot runners. Many barefoot advocates suggest running barefoot on concrete is the BEST way to learn as it forces you to run on the forefoot due to the pain if heel striking. Professor Lieberman of Harvard Uni is of this mould and he is the biggest international name behind the barefoot movement from a scientific and evolutionary perspective - http://www.barefootr...as.harvard.edu/
People of this thinking tend to believe that running barefoot on grass does not "make" you change your technique, hence you may not reap the positive technique changes associated with barefoot running. However, I personally believe that either surface is fine provided it is done correctly. Here is why:

• Barefoot running requires extensive intrinsic foot musculature and calf strength. Regardless of the foot strike, being barefoot on the grass will still use the foot muscles more so than wearing shoes. Therefore, starting on grass may allow you to build up the required strength in the foot per se before transferring to the harder surfaces at which point it is absolutely imperative you have the required strength to avoid injury. At the same time as running on grass, it would be wise to also be doing isolated calf strength work - particularly if your gait has not changed as a result of the soft and forgiving surface under foot.
  
• If you have a good understanding of running technique and/or have a coach or observer, employing a more forefoot/midfoot strike is still possible on grass.
  
• Grass feels AWESOME when barefeet
  
• It seems more natural to run on grass - in keeping with the whole essence of natural running

Personally I run completely barefoot or in my vibrams on all surfaces but to be honest i feel more comfortable when on grass. For me personally, I'd say this is due to a lack of muscular size and control in my left soleus due to an injury as a kid that caused minor nerve damage to my lower leg. When i am on grass, I don't have to be so concerned about the eccentric absorption of the calf when i land, because i can land slightly further back on my foot. It really does depend on each person however. If you are confident in your technique, have a long history of walking barefoot, and have completed a period of calf strengthening, I don't think the surface matters. Just make sure you dont rush it. Check the next issue of R4YL for a guide to transition to barefoot running. It's only a guide but I have outline the most important considerations when transitioning to barefoot, or including barefoot activity into your training.

SpecBGT - what do you think of the Inov8 Bare X Lite 150? I'm thinking of getting a pair for much longer runs.....

[SpecBGT]

BTRF the 150s are my shoe of choice at the moment. As way of background, I started with the VFF Sprints then the Bikilas. I transitioned to minimalist footwear with these shoes. I was extremely happy with the Bikilas however felt compelled to try the inov8s. At the time the Bare X 200s were the only ones available in Australia and I got a pair. Ran a PB HM in them. The sole gave a good feel, good sized toe box and of course very light. Unfortunately the sole was not durable and I have only done just under 300km and both shoes have a 5c piece size hole on the major impact point on each shoe. When the 150s became available I noticed that the sole composition was different to the 200s and decided to give them a go. The sole is a little more rigid than the 200s. It is tongue-less and seems to have a larger toe box. Ran a PB in them at the GC HM. The day after my feet were fine, the calves, however knew that they had done a race. The 150s tick all the boxes for me at the moment: light, comfortable, zero drop and at this stage I am not looking too hard for an alternative. I train in VFF so it keeps my form honest but for the races the 150s are it.

[runningphysio]

I only saw them for the first time last week and they looked and felt great. After your glowing review I might pick up a pair this week and see what they are all about! Cheers!