41 replies to this topic

[Duf]

Hi All,

I'm currently training for my first marathon (Sydney running festival sept 16). My ultimate goal is to get into trail running as I have an intense desire to get amongst nature.
I was wondering if my long runs are currently up to 32km and hopefully come september i'll be able to say I can run 42.195km what a good starting point for trail running is - distance wise?
I presume being able to run my current distances doesn't really translate to the same distance on the trail.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

[Jaxta]

I love 100km trails and usually top out in my training at around a 36km run, with perhaps (not always) a 50km race thrown in 6-8 weeks beforehand.

But, those runs are on the trails, not the roads. 32k on the road is very different to 32km of trails which invariably have hills.

If you want to race trails, you need to train on them.

But, you've obviously got a solid aerobic base so it won't be too hard to translate that. The big difference is strength, you need to have a lot more leg strength to run trails than you do roads.

Welcome to the dark side! You'll love it! And I've never met a trail runner who wasn't a nice person.

[bennie]

Great topic duf! My own goals are the same as you! To run in amongst nature is truly fantastic! I got out for a 12km trail run on Sunday and thoroughly enjoyed it!

My first trail run <race> is actually this Sunday, the You Yangs 15kms. Which will be fantastic! The hills will be hard but I'll give them a go!

I agree with Jaxta re: trail runner's being nice people! I've met a few over the years and they're awesome! :-)

Some of my beginner questions are :
What is a recommended  of trail running backpack?
Recommended trail shoes? For what conditions etc?
Best weather weather running jacket?
What is the essential backpack content?
What type of training is more beneficial for trail running compared to road running?
Hills and more hills! Do they get any easier ????
What are the main trail runs through out the year? Most of them seem to be ultra's in length however like's brett's run there is some 10,15 and 30kms runs!

Really excited about joining the dark side! Slowly / surely will be the way I'm heading but you have to start from somewhere! :-)

cheers.
bennie

[rohan]

to answer your trail running questions....

bennie, on 16 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some of my beginner questions are :
What is a recommended  of trail running backpack?
Most trail running does not require a backpack.
Recommended trail shoes? For what conditions etc?
Most trail running does not require trail shoes.
Best weather weather running jacket?
Most trail running does not require special jackets.
What is the essential backpack content?
Most trail running does not require special backpack contents
What type of training is more beneficial for trail running compared to road running?
Most trail running, while helped by often helped by hill training, looks a whole lot like other running training.  ie long run, speed sessions, tempo run, some easy runs.

I think trail running has been overcomplicated by gear companies.
I ran trails for years before buying a pair of trail shoes.
I still don't think I've raced a trail run in trail shoes, but it's possible that I have.

Edit: to add, my responses in bold inserted between Bennies questions.

Edited by rohan, 16 July 2012 - 02:20 PM.

[bennie]

rohan, on 16 July 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

to answer your trail running questions....

bennie, on 16 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some of my beginner questions are :

Most trail running does not require a backpack.
Most trail running does not require trail shoes.
Most trail running does not require special jackets.
Most trail running does not require special backpack contents
Most trail running, while helped by often helped by hill training, looks a whole lot like other running training.  ie long run, speed sessions, tempo run, some easy runs.

I think trail running has been overcomplicated by gear companies.
I ran trails for years before buying a pair of trail shoes.
I still don't think I've raced a trail run in trail shoes, but it's possible that I have.

Edit: to add, my responses in bold inserted between Bennies questions.

Hi Rohan,

Wow and thanks! :-)

That's exactly the type of response/answers I was after. Simple and to the point! Thanks mate! :-)

The reason for the backpack is mostly to do with my need to have water. Where I intend to run there won't be any water around. So the questions in regards to the backpack were indirectly wanting to have a means to put water in it.

I have no desire to spend heaps of money on 'gear' as such. I simply want to get out there and enjoy the trails. The reason for trail shoes is related around to safety. If it's wet and muddy and slippery I'm not sure if my Asics 3030's would be the best platform so to speak.

Cheers
bennie

[rohan]

Re water carrying devices.  Whatever you usually use on a long run when you have limited access to water.

I use a fuelbelt, but camelbaks are common... but generally don't fill to capacity and squeeze the excess air out.  Also stuff like those waistbelt holders for 500ml bottles, and you see some hand helds.

Re mud.  Most courses, even after heavy rains are only likely to have areas of mud and yes a trail shoe is grippier there, but all those lugs and stuff on a trail shoe are slippier if there's wooden bridges, duckboards etc.

Fresh shoes also have more grip as the 'corners' of the grip are sharper than after you've run hundreds of kms in them.  So my preference on most trails would be fresh lightweight road racing shoes without drainage holes. (think stone peircing and sand getting in, if those are on the course)

Edited by rohan, 16 July 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Brick]

rohan, on 16 July 2012 - 02:18 PM, said:

to answer your trail running questions....

bennie, on 16 July 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Some of my beginner questions are :
What is a recommended  of trail running backpack?
Most trail running does not require a backpack.
Recommended trail shoes? For what conditions etc?
Most trail running does not require trail shoes.
Best weather weather running jacket?
Most trail running does not require special jackets.
What is the essential backpack content?
Most trail running does not require special backpack contents
What type of training is more beneficial for trail running compared to road running?
Most trail running, while helped by often helped by hill training, looks a whole lot like other running training.  ie long run, speed sessions, tempo run, some easy runs.

I think trail running has been overcomplicated by gear companies.
I ran trails for years before buying a pair of trail shoes.
I still don't think I've raced a trail run in trail shoes, but it's possible that I have.

Edit: to add, my responses in bold inserted between Bennies questions.

I agree with rohan except soem races can be classed as exceptions.
GOW100 is one I think you are better to have trail shoes for.
The last few years some quite long sections are ran so much easier with good trail shoes that have good grip is needed.
Example:
Last year I ran past quite a few much better runners going up and down hills because I had Inov-8 X Talon 190 on and they had less grippy shoes.
So simply remember some times you can get away without trail shoes and some times it is better to have them depends on the course.

[otisr]

I agree with some of the above except try and run 5hrs without a backpack ??  You do need water / hydration.  And then fit in some gels / chips/ celery !!! and you soon need a few litres of caryying capacity.   I would also hate to be out running parts of trails without trail shoe grip. Especially after rain.  One slip and you soon know it.  Try road shoes, but also try the newer trail shoes.  Many out there use the new Hokas, Salomom, etc, and you find they do well in the dirt.

Look at the Ultra168 website - plenty of good guides and advise.

Welcome to trail running - you wont want road again....!

[trailpuddin]

Hi Duf,

Don't let distance be a barrier to trail running.  Put on a pack and head out even if its only 5km. ALWAYS take food, water and a first aid kit, regardless of distance. ALWAYS tell someone where you are going and the time you are due back. Get out there and enjoy it.  Run in places that are more populated initially and then as you get more experienced you can get into more isolated and adventurous locations.  99% of trail running happens away from races, away from the crowds.  Fatass runs are a great place to start too - not sure where in NSW you are but there might be some ideas there (http://www.coolrunni...title=Main_Page).

I do all my trail running in road runners and my favourite ratty old shirts.  Nature doesn't seem to care too much what I look like

[rohan]

otisr, on 16 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I agree with some of the above except try and run 5hrs without a backpack ??  You do need water / hydration.  And then fit in some gels / chips/ celery !!!

Most trail runs are less than 5 hours.

[Duf]

WOW...thanks everyone for responding....and bennie for asking some more (and very helpful) questions.

Thanks Jaxta for welcoming me to the dark side ...... i really think once I start there will be no going back.

I was wondering what 'trail shoe grip' exactly is????

trailpuddin, on 16 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hi Duf,

Don't let distance be a barrier to trail running.  Put on a pack and head out even if its only 5km. ALWAYS take food, water and a first aid kit, regardless of distance. ALWAYS tell someone where you are going and the time you are due back. Get out there and enjoy it.  Run in places that are more populated initially and then as you get more experienced you can get into more isolated and adventurous locations.  99% of trail running happens away from races, away from the crowds.  Fatass runs are a great place to start too - not sure where in NSW you are but there might be some ideas there (http://www.coolrunni...title=Main_Page).

I do all my trail running in road runners and my favourite ratty old shirts.  Nature doesn't seem to care too much what I look like

Thanks trailpuddin once again for your words of advice - and very sensible too (i didn't even think of a first aid kit!). I checked out the fatass webpage too and book marked it. I'm so used to thinking about my safety with my running. The area I live in features in the news often and as a female I make sure I stay as safe as possible. I was wondering if you run alone, or think about any of this as a female????

I also checked out the running wild website and noticed they have the next season dates loaded....I was thinking of starting from the October runs (after my september marathon).

Tis exciting

Oh and I hope this isn't silly to say....but I'm worried about getting lost....my sense of direction isn't the best...what happens in a race, is it generally clear where to go?? I have this image of being left behind and then not knowing where to go!!!!

Edited by Duf, 16 July 2012 - 08:26 PM.

[trailpuddin]

Hi Duf, Safety is everything.  Take all the security practices you've learnt for street running when you head bush.

Running Wild events are outstanding - I should have thought of that too .

I run a lot on my own but I am extremely experienced in all things bush.  I would not recommend it to a beginner male or female.  I never run on my own at night except as part of a race. Most of the places I run, people have to put effort to get to so it weeds out the idiots pretty quickly.

I personally don't think there is anymore risk just because you own a set of ovaries.  Safety in the bush is about putting your brain into gear and trail races prove time and time again that women are the smarter operators.  We call it "chicking" the blokes - one of the most fun bits of trail racing.  

Most races have really good directions but outside races you need to start small and learn skills like reading a map and getting to know terrain.  Don't expect people on a fatass run to wait for you.  You need to know where you are going.  Lots of people are starting to get out in the bush and depend on GPS' without really getting to understand how to read their environment - which is incredibly dangerous - you're buggered if the battery goes flat or you're under a canopy that cuts out satellite reception.  Take trail running as an opportunity to learn lots of new skills.  Do a map reading course, a first aid course.  Start small scale on well marked trails and very gradually build up.

Get out there and enjoy it!

[maryclaire]

There is no minimum distance required.  However in my mind, as it takes me a good 40 mins to drive to decent trails, I like to get in at leat 90 minutes out there.

As stated above, when moving to trail running, you need to change your paradigm.  Don't go for distance and don't have any set preconceptions about pace.  your "cruising" pace on roads will be much, much slower on the trail.  The trail will sort you out!

Also - another reason to rid yourself of the road runner's obsession with pace/distance is that you need to look around yourself and enjoy the environment when on trails.

As for safety or getting lost: there is wisdom in the "let someone know before you go" adage.  I always tell my husband when I intend to head out to the hills, and call him when I am back in the car.  He thinks it is overkill but I think it is sensible.

Secondly, when i first started going to trails, I was alone and did not know my way around.  I downloaded a map (from Parks Victoria) and also uploaded some public runs from Garmin Explore onto my 310xt.  This was invaluable as I learnt my way around.

Edited by maryclaire, 17 July 2012 - 01:58 PM.

[otisr]

rohan, on 16 July 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

otisr, on 16 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I agree with some of the above except try and run 5hrs without a backpack ??  You do need water / hydration.  And then fit in some gels / chips/ celery !!!

Most trail runs are less than 5 hours.

Not my kind.  5hrs is a training run.  Same with the boys and girls at Ultra 168. But if you do go the shorter trail runs, then you may not need a backpack.  Handhelds are Ok.  But each to thier own, i personally do the backpack and if under 3hrs, do handhelds with gel in pockets.

[Duf]

trailpuddin, on 16 July 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

Hi Duf, Safety is everything.  Take all the security practices you've learnt for street running when you head bush.

Running Wild events are outstanding - I should have thought of that too .

I run a lot on my own but I am extremely experienced in all things bush.  I would not recommend it to a beginner male or female.  I never run on my own at night except as part of a race. Most of the places I run, people have to put effort to get to so it weeds out the idiots pretty quickly.

I personally don't think there is anymore risk just because you own a set of ovaries.  Safety in the bush is about putting your brain into gear and trail races prove time and time again that women are the smarter operators.  We call it "chicking" the blokes - one of the most fun bits of trail racing.  

Most races have really good directions but outside races you need to start small and learn skills like reading a map and getting to know terrain.  Don't expect people on a fatass run to wait for you.  You need to know where you are going.  Lots of people are starting to get out in the bush and depend on GPS' without really getting to understand how to read their environment - which is incredibly dangerous - you're buggered if the battery goes flat or you're under a canopy that cuts out satellite reception.  Take trail running as an opportunity to learn lots of new skills.  Do a map reading course, a first aid course.  Start small scale on well marked trails and very gradually build up.

Get out there and enjoy it!

Hi trailpuddin....thank you once again. I recently wished you luck for your first marathon in another post not knowing how experienced a runner you are....my humbliest of respect to you oh wise one!!!!!!! I look forward to one day "chicking" the blokes and I'll be sure to let you know first!!!!!

My first marathon is september and I was then planning on starting the running wild trail races.....do you think it would be ok to start trail running this way??? or should i really try and have a hit out before doing any organised events?

Here's hoping anyone can learn map reading skills cause my sense of direction is non-existent. I'm cool with first aid. All that is left is to start small I guess and work up from there.

maryclaire, on 17 July 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Also - another reason to rid yourself of the road runner's obsession with pace/distance is that you need to look around yourself and enjoy the environment when on trails.

Great point....I find I have become the pace-distance obsessed road runner...with my VERY limited experience of running in the bush all that disappears and running became so much easier

[rohan]

otisr, on 17 July 2012 - 05:13 PM, said:

rohan, on 16 July 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

otisr, on 16 July 2012 - 05:02 PM, said:

I agree with some of the above except try and run 5hrs without a backpack ??  You do need water / hydration.  And then fit in some gels / chips/ celery !!!

Most trail runs are less than 5 hours.

Not my kind.  5hrs is a training run.  Same with the boys and girls at Ultra 168.

Firstly, most people doing a trail run aren't doing an Ultra.  "Trail" and "Ultra" aren't synonyms.

Secondly, the Ultra 168 site has progressed from being narrowly focused on small field long trail ultras to now covering bigger events, 50kers and the like.
They do appear to love gear, so it's good for the gear lovers whatever the distance.

Thirdly there are trail ultras around that can be done in less than 5hrs.

[loubee]

I did an ultra trail marathon (6 Inch) last year, started training in normal shoes and ended up running in them as not a very technical trail. I used a water belt for shorter run's but also bought a hydration pack as could carry more in it (first aid, gels, water etc.....) My incentive to hit the trails was to do 6 Foot but couldn't do 2012 (lucky in hindsight). I met some great people and ran in some lovely spots.

I was fully expecting to love the trails and never go back to road but have found the opposite was true for me. I did the ultra then signed up for a trail series but after the first one hated it and decided not do the remaining ones. I plan to do 6 Inch again this year and hoping to be in Vic for 2 Bays Trail in January but my preference is road racing. A factor for me is my young kids so the travel time to events/hills/trails etc... I could finish a 3 hour run door to door, perhaps as they get older I'll find more joy in it.

Hope you find the joy in trails that I'm yet to find.

Edited by loubee, 17 July 2012 - 05:56 PM.

[Duf]

loubee, on 17 July 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I was fully expecting to love the trails and never go back to road but have found the opposite was true for me. I did the ultra then signed up for a trail series but after the first one hated it and decided not do the remaining ones. I plan to do 6 Inch again this year and hoping to be in Vic for 2 Bays Trail in January but my preference is road racing. A factor for me is my young kids so the travel time to events/hills/trails etc... I could finish a 3 hour run door to door, perhaps as they get older I'll find more joy in it.

Hope you find the joy in trails but thought I would post my experience.

thanks for letting me know your experience......i've put off trails for so long because of the kids as I knew it just wouldn't work for the same reasons....mine are teenagers now, so i'm going to give it a crack and see. It is good to hear about different experiences, thanks

[trailpuddin]

Duf your well wishes for my first mara are greatly appreciated! Marathon running is a completely different beast to what I usually do and its an exciting new challenge.  Every mode of running has its own challenges, excitement and rewards.  I have been running with the mantra "don't bake the cake too early" - lots of fun!! I love it that Loubee happily admits she has tried but not enjoyed trails - people can get a bit pretentious about trail running because its the latest fad.  Fact is like any other mode of running it suits some and not others.

Short out and backs are a good idea if you are prone to a bit of navigational embarrassment - just pay attention to where you are going

[Duf]

trailpuddin, on 17 July 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Short out and backs are a good idea if you are prone to a bit of navigational embarrassment - just pay attention to where you are going

Will do.....definately a smart place to start for me....otherwise i'll make the 6pm news for lost runner!!!

[loubee]

trailpuddin, on 17 July 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

I love it that Loubee happily admits she has tried but not enjoyed trails - people can get a bit pretentious about trail running because its the latest fad.  Fact is like any other mode of running it suits some and not others.

Thanks Trailpuddin. I very much felt like I should love it for the reason you mention and had a lot of people tell me I'll get better or faster or I'll enjoy it more, fact was I just didn't. I still enjoy a trail run every now and again and will do more race's but I won't be crossing to the dark side any time soon.

[Mile27]

A tip for navigation in out and back courses- when you take a turn , look behind you to see what the turn will look like coming from the opposite direction. Things can look very different coming the other way!

[cjr]

Another thing is that being tired and "in the zone" can affect basic skills like observation, concentration and navigation.
Examples
- At Maroondah dam I missed a turn and was only rescued by someone behind me yelling. When I went back I just could not believe I had missed it as it was very clearly marked
- At Roller Coaster (2 lap course) on the second lap there were a few times I was wrongly convined I had taken a wrong turn as parts of the route just did not seem familiar from the first lap a couple of hours previosuly,

[rohan]

cjr, on 18 July 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

Another thing is that being tired and "in the zone" can affect basic skills like observation, concentration and navigation.

True.  And it's noticeable that the BOPers are most likely to go off course. I speculate that it's more head-down running just concentrating on moving forward.

Mile 27s suggestion about looking back is a good one.  It's what I used to do when Two Bays was a Fatass event with minimal marking.  Adds a minute or two to your outbound journey... but can save a whole lot of time.

[Duf]

Great advice everyone...thank you so much. I certainly think as a newbie I need to respect what trail running is all about and not just jump in. I was thinking of joining a running group (perhaps in the blue mountains) to start me off and learn from those more experienced.

[Paul Every]

trailpuddin, on 16 July 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Put on a pack and head out even if its only 5km. ALWAYS take food, water and a first aid kit, regardless of distance.

Lots of good advice from Trailpuddin, but I'm in Rohan's camp re the backpack. Don't really need it for most runs when you're starting out.

Most of my trail running is in Sydney and sees me within 5 or 10km of a trailhead and a tap. If it slightly more remote, I may carry a bottle on waist strap (even good for some 100 mile races such as Glasshouse), some long runs require a 2 litre camelback (12 Foot and races like GNW), but I have only run with a pack twice in 30 years of trail running (GOW and Northface).

As for food, that's only necessary when training runs get over 3 hours.

No need to overcomplicate things.

Mile27, on 18 July 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

A tip for navigation in out and back courses- when you take a turn , look behind you to see what the turn will look like coming from the opposite direction. Things can look very different coming the other way!

And if you still don't trust your memory, when you reach an intersection just put a marker on the side of the track you have just come down. A stick in the ground or a couple of rocks will suffice.

If you want to improve your map reading skills, the Sydney Summer Series orienteering is a gentle place to start. Wednesday evenings from October to March.

[bennie]

Some great tips here people.

Re navigation I had to laugh :-)

I'm a Scout leader in my spare time and help teach the kids map reading etc. I hope I'm not the one to get lost though :-)

Thanks for the tips re: gear and the non rush to get it. I do need to buy myself a waist water bottle though :-)

I have no access not to run trails though. I live in Bacchus marsh and have 10-15 mins access to hundreds of km's of trails thru the lerderderg region and the Brisbane ranges!!! :-)



Take care now
Bennie!

[madd0ct0r]

Do people vary their runs with the seasons?

(sounds like common sense, but we are runners after all...)

[otisr]

madd0ct0r, on 20 July 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Do people vary their runs with the seasons?

(sounds like common sense, but we are runners after all...)

Not really.  Depends on what you are trainign for.  Most run in summer / winter to keep the mileage up.  All we change is the hydration, clothing and maybe time of day.  When it is hot - you do lose energy quicker and need to hydrate more.  In winter it takes longer to warm up but it is also very pleasant.  Plus, in summer there are the wildlife issues to deal with at times.

[trailpuddin]

madd0ct0r, on 20 July 2012 - 04:12 PM, said:

Do people vary their runs with the seasons?

(sounds like common sense, but we are runners after all...)

I vary my runs based on season some runs are more enjoyable in summer others in winter.

[trailpuddin]

Paul Every, on 19 July 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Lots of good advice from Trailpuddin, but I'm in Rohan's camp re the backpack. Don't really need it for most runs when you're starting out.

haha good point Paul! I do tend to pack the kitchen sink and I also forgot that some trail runs actually have taps on them! Old habits die hard - I always get new bushwalkers to carry a pack even if they are heading out their front door - just to get into the habit of being prepared.

[Martin Dugdale]

trailpuddin, on 20 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Paul Every, on 19 July 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Lots of good advice from Trailpuddin, but I'm in Rohan's camp re the backpack. Don't really need it for most runs when you're starting out.

haha good point Paul! I do tend to pack the kitchen sink and I also forgot that some trail runs actually have taps on them! Old habits die hard - I always get new bushwalkers to carry a pack even if they are heading out their front door - just to get into the habit of being prepared.

thats why your unofficial CR name is ' Mother Duck'

[Duf]

trailpuddin, on 20 July 2012 - 06:53 PM, said:

Paul Every, on 19 July 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

Lots of good advice from Trailpuddin, but I'm in Rohan's camp re the backpack. Don't really need it for most runs when you're starting out.

haha good point Paul! I do tend to pack the kitchen sink and I also forgot that some trail runs actually have taps on them! Old habits die hard - I always get new bushwalkers to carry a pack even if they are heading out their front door - just to get into the habit of being prepared.

Any advice on a good pack to run with??? I bought what I thought would be a good one at a sport store, it's ok for running to/from work but can't imagine it taking it for much longer distances.

[Broom]

Don't forget to bring toilet paper or baby wipes  and alcogel.

[trailpuddin]

Duf - Most women love the Nathan Endurance and its reasonably priced.  Also Ultimate Direction Wink is very popular if you want a little bit more capacity.  Both packs fit extremely well on most women's bodies and there is very little bounce.  Salomon s-Lab 12s are also a good fit but they are hideously expensive and fall apart very quickly.

[Duf]

trailpuddin, on 22 July 2012 - 07:46 PM, said:

Duf - Most women love the Nathan Endurance and its reasonably priced.  Also Ultimate Direction Wink is very popular if you want a little bit more capacity.  Both packs fit extremely well on most women's bodies and there is very little bounce.  Salomon s-Lab 12s are also a good fit but they are hideously expensive and fall apart very quickly.

Thanks Trailpuddin...been checking the packs out.....as I like to be fully prepared thinking I like the look of the Wink cause of the extra storage.

[crashtest]

Same here...newbie to trail running and will be running the Running Wild  Kilcunda Half marathon and wanted to know about fuel...backpack or fuel belt.
I am really looking forward to it as it is my first half marathon!

[trailpuddin]

A stunning route Crashtest - monumental for your first half marathon.  I've run Kedumba countless times but haven't done the race.  Rules say to carry 500ml so that will be sufficient - aid stations every 5km approx.  Whether the 500ml is in a fuel belt or pack depends on what you're comfortable with.  Throw in a few gels and you will be cranking.  Enjoy!!

[cjr]

I am often amazed at he amount of stuff people carry. I did the You Yangs 50 yesterday and there were aid stations at least every 5 kms. I didn't even carry a water bottle (and didn't need it) but was amazed at the size of the backpacks some people were lugging about

[Duf]

Thought I'd go to a local area to ease into some trail running....it has a circuit around a lake....i've done it plenty of times before but it has been about 8 years since I last ran it....well i got lost and ended up doing double the distance and didn't even get around the lake...i wasn't too concerned about this one, safety wise, but it really highlighted how easy it can happen and how seriously I'll need to take trail running....incidently when i got home and loaded the garmin up i couldn't help but shake my head seeing how much i steered off course.

[GiddyUp]

I've been gradually doing some trail runs over the last year. There seems to be this issue with some runners that you're not a trail runner unless you run ultra distances... whatever... either way I enjoy running "off-road" wherever I fall in the scheme of things.

Only just got a pair of trail runners and have a Salomon twin belt on order, will see how that goes. They are fun purchases but not required, I'd suggest they are only the difference when at the pointy end of a field. If you're just looking to have some fun and get around you just need to turn up with a good attitude!

Hope it all goes well for you

[Duf]

Please don't laugh at me anyone.....but what is the story with spiders when trail running. How do people deal with webs and spiders?????