20 replies to this topic

[nofootprints]

Just back from launch of Tim Noakes new book at the SSISA called Waterlogged

I note the informed discussion on drinks on this forum at http://www.coolrunni...showtopic=35414



If i got it right .. Main Points:

• Overhyrdation is main culprit of hyponatremia in running.. which is potentially fatal if experienced and not treated properly
  
• Claims zero science to sports drinks such as Gatorade
  
• Glucose does not increase absorbtion of water
  
• Claims there's a well orchestrated  conspiracy behind this industry (gatorade funds key and peak bodies including in the US and AUS and has impacted on medical literature)
  
• Its a myth that  carbohydrate=electrolyte drinks is better for rehydration than water.
  
• He traced the history of the introduction of sports drinks and the science around it. Very interesting and well documented in the book
  
• Its okay to lose body weight through dehydration -  top runners lose up to 10% bodyweight.
  
• Importantly only drink when you are thirsty - no more. Sportsdrinks have promoted quantity/hour ... its a load of bollocks.
  
• Colour of urine not great indicator of hydration
  
• Body is great self regulator of blood sodium and you do not need to support  intake of salts almost impossible to have a deficiency. Problem is caused by overhydration and dilution of Na+

Great and informative talk and covered the history of sports drinks.

funnily enough Ross Tucker  got tweeted during the talk by an olympian who is sponsored by gatorade and cast aspersions at some of Ross's tweets.

TN has been working on this topic for over 30 years and blames overhydration and the myths promoted by sports drinks for at least 12 deaths in sport but certain there's a whole lot more.


For those of you who like me had never heard of hypnatremia

From wikipedia
In the vast majority of cases, hyponatremia occurs as a result of excess body water diluting the serum sodium.
Hyponatremia is most often a complication of other medical illnesses in which excess water accumulates in the body at a higher rate than can be excreted (for example in congestive heart failure, syndrome of inappropriate antidiuretic hormone, SIADH, or polydipsia). Sometimes it may be a result of overhydration.
Lack of sodium is virtually never the cause of hyponatremia, although it can promote hyponatremia indirectly. In particular, sodium loss can lead to a state of volume depletion, with volume depletion serving as signal for the release of ADH (anti-diuretic hormone). As a result of ADH-stimulated water retention, blood sodium becomes diluted and hyponatremia results.
Exercise-associated hyponatremia (EAH), however, is not uncommon. Researchers found, for instance, that 13% of the athletes who finished the 2002 Boston Marathon were in a clinically hyponatremic condition.

Edited by nofootprints, 26 July 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Ultramouse]

Sounds like Noakes and I agree on more than I suggested in the other, related, thread vis a vis the sports drink industry. Perhaps the CHP can use Gatorade like they used to use Coca Cola in the old urban myth - for washing the blood off the road after a car crash. I can't see any other use for it.

[AlunDavies]

Nothing new in there that the good doctor hasn't detailed in The Lore Of Running (as far as bodily function is concerned).  Love the way he speaks his mind, though I guess he's hardly likely to jeopordise his career at this stage.  With him 100%.

As for the Coke UM, nothing wrong with it as long as you're prepared to make hay while the sun shines (and deal with the subsequent crash).

[Colin]

He is throwing out the baby with the bath water. It is not bad advice, but one must remember a few things:

When the going gets tough towards end of marathon and you want to keep your 'fast' pace, then only replenishment of simple sugars will keep you going. At that point, coke (even with extra sugar) and electrolyte (sugar) drinks are your 'go to' sources.
The rest of you walking can continue to rely on your fat sources if you wish.

Noakes himself has preached that it is 'blood sugar' rather than stored carbs in muscles that becomes your downfall because it is imperative to continued conciousness itself. However, by only ingesting 50g of CHO/day as he preaches elsewhere , your stored carbs will run out and also start depleting blood sugar ie. you cannot rely on sugar/gels only taken during race.

Pace dependent...as above, all is different if you are running at 50% of your VO2max vs 85%...(rather not compare speeds, but effort).

Noakes was one of proponents of early gels and energy drinks in 1980 when they brought out FRN which has found its way into the Leppin brand as "an FRN carb polymer". What did FRN actually stand for? Fordyce (you know him), Rose (Bernard Rose a 2:10 marathoner) and Noakes (yes our good Prof).
Noakes sidesteps this involvement and marketing all the time. It only discontinued and was absorbed into Leppin because they didn't make money.

I am a strong proponent of Noakes, but remember what he himself preaches- and this is his best advice: "I only know 50% of what I think I know- problem is we don't know which 50%" -might not be verbatim...but a good philosophy.

Edited by Colin, 26 July 2012 - 10:26 AM.

[nofootprints]

Colin, Just from the talk Tim admitted that he's made mistakes and his involvement with Energade was discussed.
.
I think you comments about FRN acts as a form of ad hominem belabours the conversation; your later comments in your post aside

The beautiful thing about Tim is i believe him to be a honest seeker of knowledge andseems to have no holy cows around himself. He's not beholden to anyone (has personal integrity and that aside comes from a wealthy background) and if you know hiim is a very approachable person.

TO suggest he sidesteps this issue tells me you are unlikely to have engaged wtih him and I dont believe himto be a disingenious person.

WHich is important to know since he's going against a major lobby group on this and in the USA sportsdrinks and hydration are deemed to be signifciantly important.

As an aside in his talk he raised the issues of Carbs in drinks. He stated again if i got this right - that as a basic rule he doesnt deem them significant unless you are carbo adaptive - which i think most of us are so take from that what you want  .



This issue of hyponeurtima is very very important

Edited by nofootprints, 26 July 2012 - 06:32 PM.

[Ultramouse]

nofootprints, on 26 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I think you comments about FRN acts as a form of ad hominem belabours the conversation; your later comments in your post aside

Here's an 'ad hominem' statement: Ultramouse has no bloody idea. Well, he posts on CoolRunning, doesn't he?

[nofootprints]

haha  love it. . fire it up ultramouse ......... makes me a bit "otherhome"-sick!

[Colin]

nofootprints, on 26 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

The beautiful thing about Tim is i believe him to be a honest seeker of knowledge and seems to have no holy cows around himself. He's not beholden to anyone (has personal integrity and that aside comes from a wealthy background) and if you know hiim is a very approachable person.

I agree, there was nothing ad hominem intended. The FRN isssue just needs to be mentioned in the context of him being against 'all carbs' and especially the electrolyte drink industry of which he was one of the forebearers.
I don't think there is anyone here who refers to him more than me.

nofootprints, on 26 July 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

This issue of hyponeurtima is very very important

Again there is perhaps only one person here who warns of the dangers of hyponatraemia as much as me- and that person is a medical doctor

The issue is important, but where I say he throws the baby out with the bathwater is when he goes against overdrinking and electrolyte drinks in the same context.

Do people get hyponatraemia from drinking too much--YES...
...and therefore we must warn people, especially in long slow races where water is in abundance- Comrades and also big marathons with long cut off times and lots of people walking.

Do they get hyponatraemia from drinking too much electrolyte drinks--NO...
...I challenge anyone to run an ultra and drink so much electrolyte that they do not have a queasy stomach/puke/number 2 etc before being hyponatraemic. It isn't physically possible to drink that amout of sugar in that space of time. The osmolality difference will mean that it just stays in your gut.
Electrolyte drinks is not the cause of hyponatraemia.

So on electrolytes being bad or good.

General public, kids etc?--probably not good, but hey it is better than coke as a casual drink, what about beer? Choice between coke and powerade, same sugar and sodium without the caffeine, phosphoric acid etc...what's better?

Sports people?---marketed as a rehydration necessity by well known sports people...not good, because it leads to above general public drinking it too much.

Marathon runners? --good, absolutely. If you are running at 'race pace' or your marginal effort which requires about 80-85% of VO2max there is no human that can do that without ingesting carbs and when you are bonking after 32km everyone knows the benefits of coke, sugar water, lollies or sugary electrolyte drinks. Noakes knows that and that is what he himself did when he ran 2:50 or 6:50 for comrades. It is ok for him to now say when he only jogs casually and is into bushwalking etc, that he only needs and takes 50g CHO/day, but it does not hold true for performance purposes.
No human being defies the krebs cycle of energy production.

And this is where I have my only beef with him. This is what works for him now with his current lifestyle, so without science he just 'says it' and knows that people will believe based on his reputation. Well do that enough, and that very reputation which I have acknowledged more than most, will diminish.

And so, without a scientific argument against electrolyte drinks- rightly bad for general use, but good for marathoners- he puts the criticism of it in the same report on on the dangers of over drinking...that is not science.

cheers

Edited by Colin, 27 July 2012 - 10:52 AM.

[Kathymac]

Colin, on 27 July 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Do they get hyponatraemia from drinking too much electrolyte drinks--NO...
...I challenge anyone to run an ultra and drink so much electrolyte that they do not have a queasy stomach/puke/number 2 etc before being hyponatraemic. It isn't physically possible to drink that amout of sugar in that space of time. The osmolality difference will mean that it just stays in your gut.
Electrolyte drinks is not the cause of hyponatraemia.

I am currently struggling through Waterlogged at the moment and Noakes does argue that you can develop hyponatraemia from drinking too much electrolyte drink.

He talks about low sodium not being the issue - that it is excess hydration that is the problem concurrent with a dysfunction in ADH.

the example he gives at the start of the book is of a slow marathoner who died running the Boston marathon who consumed mainly electrolyte drink.

Admittedly you need to drink more electrolyte drink than pure water to run into difficulties but it can still be done (apparently).

[nofootprints]

Colin,Tim didnt state that  sportsdrinks cause hyponatraemia in his talk but rather that the guys who produce it do promote it through recommendations of promoting  overhydration through marketing and by supporting what i guess he would call false science. i think this is an important distinction.
anything else besides water that you put in your body your body has to process it which uses energy. either those things help or dont. if they dont they get excreted as waste products

on your other issues with TN about electrolytes etc i would suggest that you email him pointing out where you take issue with what you believe his current positions are...i  look forward to his response.

[Ultramouse]

I've just noticed the 'follow this topic' buttton at top right, so I clicked on it. I might be a bit late as it has been going for a couple of days now and as I am off work sick I have been following it anyway. But I must say it has been interesting to see Colin and nofootprints' arguments grow with both aggro and respect, while at the same time discussing something which is probably of far greater importance than which shoes to wear or are ultra runners better than track runners. The odd interloper such as I has cut in with a few inane comments (I do that rather well, I believe) but I would like to take this opportunity to say that I have thoroughly enjoyed the personal progression, the respect shown to contributing correspondents and the willingness to actually read and inwardly digest what each has to say. You're probably thinking, "D'uh? It's not like that at all." But you're wrong. This has been a thread (along with the other, related thread) which has embodied for me what CoolRunning is all about. Perhaps I am a little strange, but it has appealed to both the wannabe intellectual and the wannabe runner in me.

The jury still seems to be out on things hydrational, but it also happens to be the the major area in my racing that I just can't get my head around. I do love some debate which forces me to look further into the subject.

Now wouldn't it be just grand if TN chipped in and became a forum member on CR. I reckon so many threads would be 'followed' if he did. I can't believe he doesn't know we exist.

[trailpuddin]

And TN will happily relpy. I emailed him with some questions a few months back and got a detailed and useful response.  You don't need to 100% agree with someone in order to learn something worthwhile from them. I congratulate the man for being willing to challenge conventional thinking and to evolve his own thinking. Wish the world had more people like it rather than armchair experts who do little to advance the world.

Glean what's useful from his work and let the rest brew with time.

[Tony123]

Noakes also has some interesting ideas on carbohydrates

http://www.health24....1-512,73175.asp

[walker1st]

there is 1 very confusing point in lots of running related topics :

people do mix arguments from race with arguments from training

and what is good-bad during long term training period gets contradicted with what is good-bad to do during the marathon - which you seriously run 1-2 x per year.

Here Colin is using an argument from the situation at the end of marathon race, but my feel that the topic is about the other 364 days of the year.

Personally I try to keep the issue very separate, and what I do during the year could be very different during an important race, but the number of personally important races needs to be kept to minimum, it is not 52 per year, or 104 per year as some are serious about midweek club races, or even group traing sessions.

I came across health and performance very struggling cyclist, who is carbing up before each group session so he stay with the group... you get the point

So in short - while during the year I am not touching sugars in any form, I am willing to drink some, maybe even Coke, say max 3-4 per year in important race, if the race is marathon or ultra, walking or running.


WATER POINT - reading articles and stories and studies from KEN-ETH training camps :

no drink on waking up, morning run on no food and no water, after 1 cup of tea sometimes some additional water.

seems that these runners during the day have much lower water/liquid intake,
than the western person sitting in the office with the plastic bottle on the table next to PC screen monitor

[walker1st]

Tony123, on 17 September 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Noakes also has some interesting ideas on carbohydrates

http://www.health24....1-512,73175.asp

yes, but ideas are old and wide spread, Tim is perhaps the first running popular author to publish it
but otherwise nothing new
I would say Tim could see where it is going so he runs to the front of it to look like a leader.

for further reading follow any search links to ketonic diet or ketogenic diet.

and the VLCHF = very low carb high fat

and Maffetone was also good in spreading the message in this regard

and look up the Van Aaken "hell week" practice : 7 days of 7x1H run with 1H passive rest, slow run , on basically no carb intake

so finally Noakes coming to his senses.


my dinner last night was 2 avocados, slice of fat speck, cheese, capsicums, and afternoon tea was full cream greek yoghurt

[Colin]

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Here Colin is using an argument from the situation at the end of marathon race, but my feel that the topic is about the other 364 days of the year

A running forum, I thought the waterlogged issue was related to what happens in running and drinking too much. I am sure there are general health forums.

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Tony123, on 17 September 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Noakes also has some interesting ideas on carbohydrates

http://www.health24....1-512,73175.asp

yes, but ideas are old and wide spread, Tim is perhaps the first running popular author to publish it
but otherwise nothing new
I would say Tim could see where it is going so he runs to the front of it to look like a leader.

I referred to that Noakes diet way back, but Rudi...if he has been doing it fo over 0yrs why do you say that he is pretending to now lead on it?

[walker1st]

Colin, on 18 September 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 09:10 AM, said:

Here Colin is using an argument from the situation at the end of marathon race, but my feel that the topic is about the other 364 days of the year

A running forum, I thought the waterlogged issue was related to what happens in running and drinking too much. I am sure there are general health forums.

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

Tony123, on 17 September 2012 - 10:17 PM, said:

Noakes also has some interesting ideas on carbohydrates

http://www.health24....1-512,73175.asp

yes, but ideas are old and wide spread, Tim is perhaps the first running popular author to publish it
but otherwise nothing new
I would say Tim could see where it is going so he runs to the front of it to look like a leader.

I referred to that Noakes diet way back, but Rudi...if he has been doing it fo over 0yrs why do you say that he is pretending to now lead on it?

running forum - so it is about running every day, the every training session maybe only 1x per day or 2-3 x per day, the food and drinks before during and after the sessions

unless you are thinking of those marathon collectors who do no training during a week and run 1 marathon every sunday



Tim leading on it - as you can see public now see him as the author coming with the idea and public would likely only read his book on the topic, or the the first book on the topic, maybe first article on the topic

but I remember we had this exchange or similar when his article was first published, I have said than something like - great he is apologizing now, better late than never
(on his previous wrong infos and promotions of sugars and carbs)

[Colin]

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Tim leading on it - as you can see public now see him as the author coming with the idea and public would likely only read his book on the topic, or the the first book on the topic, maybe first article on the topic

but I remember we had this exchange or similar when his article was first published, I have said than something like - great he is apologizing now, better late than never
(on his previous wrong infos and promotions of sugars and carbs)

Sorry , typo in my post makes what you say wrong...he has been doing it for over 30yrs

I don't agree with everything he says, but you must have missed where he has said (and I referenced before) " I only know 50% of what I have learnt and 50% of that might be wrong,I just don't know which 50%"....doesn't sound like someone who thinks he knows everything or needs to apologise for it.

[walker1st]

Colin, on 18 September 2012 - 11:20 AM, said:

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Tim leading on it - as you can see public now see him as the author coming with the idea and public would likely only read his book on the topic, or the the first book on the topic, maybe first article on the topic

but I remember we had this exchange or similar when his article was first published, I have said than something like - great he is apologizing now, better late than never
(on his previous wrong infos and promotions of sugars and carbs)

Sorry , typo in my post makes what you say wrong...he has been doing it for over 30yrs

I don't agree with everything he says, but you must have missed where he has said (and I referenced before) " I only know 50% of what I have learnt and 50% of that might be wrong,I just don't know which 50%"....doesn't sound like someone who thinks he knows everything or needs to apologise for it.

yes I did read it and I do understand it is not his fault

but it is the perception of the public which puts him to the situation of unwillingly being responsible for misseducation of thousands (or millions) of runners


he was leading for 30 years ? I did not mean general info leader for runners I do mean leader in info about sugars and carbs, he did 180 about face

and as you can see public now see it as Tim does have interesting ideas

instead - now finally Tim does have correct ideas and is finally coming to the party

[Colin]

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

he was leading for 30 years ? I did not mean general info leader for runners I do mean leader in info about sugars and carbs, he did 180 about face

No, read what I said. He hasn't been 'leading' for over 30yrs, he has been on that low carb diet for over 30 yrs...so where is the about face?

[walker1st]

Colin, on 18 September 2012 - 12:10 PM, said:

walker1st, on 18 September 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

he was leading for 30 years ? I did not mean general info leader for runners I do mean leader in info about sugars and carbs, he did 180 about face

No, read what I said. He hasn't been 'leading' for over 30yrs, he has been on that low carb diet for over 30 yrs...so where is the about face?

Colin where is that info, all I can see is pointing to the assumption, that he only found out recently and converted recently

http://www.health24....-1173,73179.asp

some paragraphs copied :

It’s taken a lifetime to realise it but Prof Tim Noakes now believes the overconsumption of refined carbohydrates may be toxic for the body.

I am not one to shy away from controversy. But I suspect that this column will attract more unfavourable comment than perhaps anything else I have recently written. Yet the message could be life-changing for some.

It has taken me 61 years to suspect that bread and cereals – the biblical staff of life – as well as rice, pasta and refined carbohydrates may not be healthy for me personally as I had always believed.

My attention to this possibility was piqued by the release of the most recent 2010 US Dietary Guidelines. These guidelines promote the concept of the Food Pyramid built on 6-11 daily servings of bread, cereals, rice and pasta.
......

Finally, I submitted myself to an experiment of rigorously avoiding all bread, cereals, rice, pasta and refined carbohydrates and replacing that nutritional deficit with healthy meats, fish, fruit, vegetables and fats, including nuts.

Five months later, I am at my lightest weight in 20 years and I am running faster than I have in 20 years. For the first time since I ran heroic weekly mileages in training have I learned exactly how to maintain an ideal body weight without any sense of privation. And with only as much exercise as I want to do. Even my friends are impressed. They agree that not even the most expensive cosmetic surgery could have produced such a remarkable change.


--------------------------------

from all the above and other references all I can assume he is very recent convert

and from what some runners said (those who read his former books - I have not ! ) he was incorporating carbs into his recommendation in running nutrition

Edited by walker1st, 18 September 2012 - 01:56 PM.