170 replies to this topic

[Poseiron]

Hi, I have been in training for nearly 1 year to run my first marthon.
I cut dow drastically on alcohol 8 months ago and would say I on average have 2.5 drinks per week, (red wine)
Coz it keeps me sane. I ussualy drink it the when I know I have a 3 day break.

Training is going well (besides the current stress fracture) but my question is; could I perform better if I cut it away all together?

I don't need to be a sub 3 hour runner but does anyone know of any reasearch that states even small quantities of alcohol would effect performance?

Opinions and facts appreciated

[rohan]

I don't drink much, have run some sub 3 marathons, and really can't see what the problem with alcohol would be.

Why would you separate the days you drink moderately from the days you run?

Sometimes I think people go for total abstinence from alcohol for reasons of asceticism and self-righteousness rather than any practical reason.
(if you're an alcoholic and you're worried that having a drink or two will send you on a downward spiral, then that's a whole different story.)

[twosheds]

Ive found that since I cut down dramatically on alcohol I don't really enjoy it anymore- but dont think total abstinence is necessary for good performance.  Unfortunately now it just kind of makes me feel tired so I don't tend to have it very much. I really think drinking is something you have to train for- I used to be quite good at it when I trained-hahaha

[Tapatia32]

I love a drink and I'd have 2-4 drinks every night if I could,sometimes more on a weekend,but I find it does affect my marathon training.

You don't need to cut out drinking all together but when training to run a 3hr marathon I cut back to a glass or two a week in social situations from 8 weeks out until the race,I figured one or two a week is ok,I'm not training for the bloody olympics after all.

It's not as if the grog definitely slows you down but you train better when you're fresh every day.IMO

Edited by Tapatia32, 17 August 2012 - 10:50 AM.

[undercover brother]

Poseiron, on 17 August 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

I don't need to be a sub 3 hour runner but does anyone know of any reasearch that states even small quantities of alcohol would effect performance?

the AIS websitehas a fair bit of stuff on drugs and sport.
in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.
even half a standard drink a day is associated with a mortality increase - increasing significantly at 2 drinks.
NHMRC guidelines here(FAQs down the bottom).
enjoy.

[Davo]

However, there's many a time when, with about 5k to go in a marathon, I've felt that a shot of whiskey would help me along!

[theturtle]

I am a great believer of drinking after a marathon...If this helps!

[Andrew2]

twosheds, on 17 August 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I really think drinking is something you have to train for- I used to be quite good at it when I trained-hahaha

At Uni we used to use the football analogy, and talk about being 'Match fit'  or not.   Or 'pre-christmas training''.  Or 'He's failled to pace himself'.   Etc, ad nauseum...
Not match fit nowadays and much better for it.

[Poseiron]

I have a 40 year old single malt ready for after.

Thanks, sounds like 2 drinks a week want kill me or the road runner

[twosheds]

Andrew2, on 17 August 2012 - 12:59 PM, said:

twosheds, on 17 August 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

I really think drinking is something you have to train for- I used to be quite good at it when I trained-hahaha

At Uni we used to use the football analogy, and talk about being 'Match fit'  or not.   Or 'pre-christmas training''.  Or 'He's failled to pace himself'.   Etc, ad nauseum...
Not match fit nowadays and much better for it.

hahaha-yes I remember. I have been know to put in  a few "Man of the match" ( or woman in my case) performances.

[Rico]

I only had two glasses of red the night before my sub 3 hour marathon.

[DoyveB]

Carbing up for Adelaide marathon this Sunday, can't eat pasta without a Cab/Sav, just ain't proper

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

[Bronnie]

A recent issue of Runner's World had an interesting story on related topic and looked at alcohol effects on running performance.  Off the top of my head I think it assisted performance in that it reduced percieved exertion and blood pressure or some such parameters but the effect was greater in females than males.

[runhard]

Davo, on 17 August 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

However, there's many a time when, with about 5k to go in a marathon, I've felt that a shot of whiskey would help me along!

I believe that doesnt work. I watched a couple of guys down some Whisky in the King of the Mountain race  (at the top of the mountain).   after running about 800m, one stopped and suggested it wasnt a good idea.  I laughed and kept running!!

[yeti]

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

There is a difference between "unhealthy" and "detrimental to performance".

Anyway, in my experience alcohol, even in moderate amounts, can negatively impact running performance in two ways:
- lower quality training runs the day after a (few) drink(s). Anything more than about one glass of wine affects my training on the next day. More so now than 10 or 15 years ago.
- weight increase. Beer contains ~50kcal/100ml (160kcal/stubby), wine around 85kcal/100ml (170kcal/glass).

Yeti

[Hermie]

Tapatia32, on 17 August 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

You don't need to cut out drinking all together

You do if you are like me and a standard days drinking was three lagers, two heavy ales, couple of Guinness, a half bottle of red bubbles washed down with maybe a quarter bottle of spirits to which I will return when diagnosed with terminal cancer. Until then, sadly teetotal.

[plu]

Hi all,
zen it - the Middle Way.

Cheers Plu

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

One anecdote holds no weight against the AIS and NHMRC stuff I linked.
I gather you don't have a science background?

[StillGettinThere]

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

Keep drinking and you won't remember what a memory is.

[Stej]

Has anyone mentioned Marathon du Medoc?  Sometimes alcohol and marathons do combine.

[johnnyboyrun]

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

And Rob Decastella was a runner not a medical professional...

[walker1st]

johnnyboyrun, on 18 August 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

And Rob Decastella was a runner not a medical professional...

yes Rob is a good example since every runner knows him and knows his physical and mental condition

so that should be the best scary example of what drinking and running mixed together can do to human body and mind

take his inability to focus during the London marathon on the topic

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 18 August 2012 - 07:51 AM, said:

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

One anecdote holds no weight against the AIS and NHMRC stuff I linked.
I gather you don't have a science background?

I've got an applied science degree. . and currently work as a researcher.

Edited by speedmeup, 18 August 2012 - 10:58 AM.

[Paul Every]

johnnyboyrun, on 18 August 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

speedmeup, on 17 August 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

undercover brother, on 17 August 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

in a more global context the simple message is no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'.

bollocks, Rob Decastella swore on having a light beer every now and again.. and if memory serves me correctly he did 'alright"

And Rob Decastella was a runner not a medical professional...

Wasn't Deek employed as a biophysicist at the AIS for a while?

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 18 August 2012 - 10:57 AM, said:

I've got an applied science degree. . and currently work as a researcher.

Ahhh all good, sarcasm it is then (I sincerely hope anyway)

[speedmeup]

lol ! .. ive certainly never done any research on alchohol (not formal research anyway!) .. . .  in my laymans interpretation. . the literature shows alchohol as a bit of a double edged sword (if you jump onto "Google Scholar" and do a quick search on "Moderate Alchocol and disease"). Youll see that moderate Alchohol intake has been associated with reduced risk of coronary disease in some age groups, but an increased risk of things like breast cancer and diabetes in others. .

each to make their own choice i guess . . . i had two light beers last night after work, and got through my long run this - morning no worries.

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 18 August 2012 - 01:28 PM, said:

... the literature shows alchohol as a bit of a double edged sword (if you jump onto "Google Scholar" and do a quick search on "Moderate Alchocol and disease"). Youll see that moderate Alchohol intake has been associated with reduced risk of coronary disease in some age groups, but an increased risk of things like breast cancer and diabetes in others. .

No need for google here as we have guidelines produced by the experts.
These were the ones I linked earlier (from the nhmrc) and to which I was referring when I made the comment you felt was bollocks.
The often quoted potential for CAD risk improvement is overstated, not from the alcohol content of the drink per se and is outweighed by increased risk of death by cancer and trauma.
Read the guidelines.
It's why I linked them.

Edited by undercover brother, 18 August 2012 - 02:13 PM.

[speedmeup]

Google Scholar is a scientific literature search engine.. not to be confused with the generic Google platform. If you type "google scholar" into google, a whole new search engine will appear.

Personally I would rather read the literature directly rather than accept without question a synthesis made by others. Although generic "guidelines" are often released by the government in good faith, they are subject to individual interpretation in consultation with your GP.

a few research papers which may be of interest;

http://jech.bmj.com/.../63/7/534.short

http://www.internati...0093-4/abstract

http://ang.sagepub.c.../58/6/689.short

Edited by speedmeup, 18 August 2012 - 07:20 PM.

[walker1st]

some extract from wild types of berries, would provide much higher concentration of those micro-nutrients, which are supposedly the good factor in drinking glass of red wine,

but the wine lobby pays better of course

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 18 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Personally I would rather read the literature directly rather than accept without question a synthesis made by others.

i would suggest there are much better medical literature search tools than google.
the NHMRC guidelines has over 300 references.
i guess you have a lot more reading to do then...

Edited by undercover brother, 19 August 2012 - 12:37 PM.

[mytym]

As I don't drink, I can't comment on the effects of alcohol on running performance.  However, the common sense approach would suggest the odd glass of wine now and then would be no more or less detrimental than 1,001 other substances we consume over the week without giving them a second thought.  Everything has an effect, and everyone is affected differently.  Junk food, snacking in the evening, mixing the wrong foods together (even healthy foods), soft drink, panadol, poor food preparation hygiene, smoking, watching too much TV, or heaven-forbid, spending too much time on-line, the list goes on.

[Davo]

mytym, on 19 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

As I don't drink, I can't comment on the effects of alcohol on running performance.  However, the common sense approach would suggest the odd glass of wine now and then would be no more or less detrimental than 1,001 other substances we consume over the week without giving them a second thought.  Everything has an effect, and everyone is affected differently.  Junk food, snacking in the evening, mixing the wrong foods together (even healthy foods), soft drink, panadol, poor food preparation hygiene, smoking, watching too much TV, or heaven-forbid, spending too much time on-line, the list goes on.

I notice you didn't include "too much sex" in all that.  Thank goodness!

[iRonnie]

mytym, on 19 August 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

As I don't drink, I can't comment on the effects of alcohol on running performance.  However, the common sense approach would suggest the odd glass of wine now and then would be no more or less detrimental than 1,001 other substances we consume over the week without giving them a second thought.  Everything has an effect, and everyone is affected differently.  Junk food, snacking in the evening, mixing the wrong foods together (even healthy foods), soft drink, panadol, poor food preparation hygiene, smoking, watching too much TV, or heaven-forbid, spending too much time on-line, the list goes on.

You also forgot to mention stress-induced cortisol damage from online bullies (not referring to you in anyway there mytym).

Maybe the NHMRC guidelines need to broaden its medical literature to include the reasons why people use grog to self-medicate.  Generally speaking , society needs to try a little more, nay a lot more,  support and understanding for those who medicate with grog instead of condemnation.

Marathoning has proven (Eagle et al) to be a  great way to  pull out of that rat-trap.

Edited by iRonnie, 19 August 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 19 August 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

speedmeup, on 18 August 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Personally I would rather read the literature directly rather than accept without question a synthesis made by others.

i would suggest there are much better medical literature search tools than google.
the NHMRC guidelines has over 300 references.
i guess you have a lot more reading to do then...

Oh .. 300 references? it must be good then? ..

I'll give you a tip:  A lot of references does not make a paper 'good" .. in fact most journal publishers prefer "less references of good quality" than lots of references of mediocre quality.

In regards to using Google scholar as a search tool ...  also doesn't matter how you find information .. it matters what the information contains, and whether it is peer reviewed and scientifically correct.

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 19 August 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Oh .. 300 references? it must be good then? ..

yep.
thanks for the 'tip' - well aware of all that.

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 19 August 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

speedmeup, on 19 August 2012 - 03:52 PM, said:

Oh .. 300 references? it must be good then? ..

yep.
thanks for the 'tip' - well aware of all that.

no problems, any time. .

I've written a few government "guidelines" in my time, however i've never said to anyone - "This is the way it is.. nobody question it, and no-body seek to learn anything different" . .that would be silly

Edited by speedmeup, 19 August 2012 - 04:31 PM.

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 19 August 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I've written a few government "guidelines" in my time, however i've never said to anyone - "This is the way it is.. nobody question it, and no-body seek to learn anything different" . .that would be silly

of course feel free to question guidelines.
something i have done many times myself.
in order to do this for these ones can i suggest reading them.
then on your own suggestion read all 300+ references and do your own lit search for more.
let me know when you have anything concrete to question/add.
enjoy.

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 19 August 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

speedmeup, on 19 August 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:

I've written a few government "guidelines" in my time, however i've never said to anyone - "This is the way it is.. nobody question it, and no-body seek to learn anything different" . .that would be silly

of course feel free to question guidelines.
something i have done many times myself.
in order to do this for these ones can i suggest reading them.
then on your own suggestion read all 300+ references and do your own lit search for more.
let me know when you have anything concrete to question/add.
enjoy.

I agree with 99% the guidelines, i just dont agree with your single excerpt that " no amount of alcohol is 'healthy'

... clearly some of the literature suggests otherwise, for some sectors (and ages) of the community. Open your mind UCB to the possibility that someone has a different opinon to yours.

Edited by speedmeup, 19 August 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 19 August 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

I agree with 99% the guidelines...
Open your mind UCB to the possibility that someone has a different opinon to yours.

close enough.
the vast majority of people have opinions different to mine.

[BEN-HUR]

Hmmm... have I mentioned on this forum that alcohol is a class 1 carcinogen? Yes, I believe I have... hence not optimal for marathon running - not at all an optimal form for hydration - period (& I don't care who has combined the two & says otherwise). But hey, try telling that to some people under the deceptive spell of alcohol. And whatever benefits you wish to ascribe to alcohol, there are far greater disadvantages... & far better alternatives for the desired benefit you claim you are after i.e. resveratrol & the many other forms of antioxidants.

I personally wouldn't touch the stuff but realize that others have the right to make their own lifestyle choices... with their own bodies.

However, others who are more enlightened on the topic also have the right to inform their brother or sister of the potential health dangers of an obvious poor lifestyle choice which has the medical/scientific evidence to support the risk of potential danger ... particularly when a related question is asked on a public forum. Crikey... maybe it's because they care .

Lemon juice & water anyone?

[Paul Every]

BEN-HUR, on 19 August 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hmmm... have I mentioned on this forum that alcohol is a class 1 carcinogen? Yes, I believe I have... hence not optimal for marathon running - not at all an optimal form for hydration - period (& I don't care who has combined the two & says otherwise). But hey, try telling that to some people under the deceptive spell of alcohol. And whatever benefits you wish to ascribe to alcohol, there are far greater disadvantages... & far better alternatives for the desired benefit you claim you are after i.e. resveratrol & the many other forms of antioxidants.

I personally wouldn't touch the stuff but realize that others have the right to make their own lifestyle choices... with their own bodies.

However, others who are more enlightened on the topic also have the right to inform their brother or sister of the potential health dangers of an obvious poor lifestyle choice which has the medical/scientific evidence to support the risk of potential danger ... particularly when a related question is asked on a public forum. Crikey... maybe it's because they care .

Lemon juice & water anyone?

....and that's why you should never trust someone who did the catering at the Marriage at Cana.

[Davo]

BEN-HUR, on 19 August 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hmmm... have I mentioned on this forum that alcohol is a class 1 carcinogen? Yes, I believe I have... hence not optimal for marathon running - not at all an optimal form for hydration - period (& I don't care who has combined the two & says otherwise). But hey, try telling that to some people under the deceptive spell of alcohol. And whatever benefits you wish to ascribe to alcohol, there are far greater disadvantages... & far better alternatives for the desired benefit you claim you are after i.e. resveratrol & the many other forms of antioxidants.

I personally wouldn't touch the stuff but realize that others have the right to make their own lifestyle choices... with their own bodies.

However, others who are more enlightened on the topic also have the right to inform their brother or sister of the potential health dangers of an obvious poor lifestyle choice which has the medical/scientific evidence to support the risk of potential danger ... particularly when a related question is asked on a public forum. Crikey... maybe it's because they care .

Lemon juice & water anyone?

I think I need a shot of vodka to help me understand all that.

[sportsphysio]

undercover brother, on 19 August 2012 - 05:25 PM, said:

the vast majority of people have opinions different to mine.

I disagree. My opinion is remarkably similar to yours...

NHMRC doesn't publish rubbish. They spend lots of government cash to get the best guidelines available. However, risk is a funny thing. We "risk" our health in pretty much everything we do. Driving a car, living in the city and, yes, even running. And some risks are more fun than others. If you know the risks and you're still willing to do it, go nuts.

As for the original post, 2 glasses a week isn't huge. It has some health risks associated with it (see above...and above...and above that again); it also has some performance gains (but that was small amounts of alcohol taken before short duration activity, so it won't help with a marathon).

Personally, I avoid combining red wine and running as it's bloody difficult to get the aftertaste out of my Camelbak.

[undercover brother]

Davo, on 19 August 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

I think I need a shot of vodka to help me understand all that.

i understood every word.
btw BH you're officially 'tagged in'.
bro

[speedmeup]

.. a final thought - here is a link to Martin Dents (current Olympic marathon runner) athletic profile..

http://www.athletics....au/martin-dent

Scroll down and take a look at his favourite indulgence .. "Pizza and Beer night"

Personally as with most of you folks I'm a bit of a non-drinker, probably 2 standard drinks a fortnight at most. . and none before a race. . . . but a beer every now and then should not put the stoppers to your training.

Edited by speedmeup, 20 August 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[speedmeup]

BEN-HUR, on 19 August 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Hmmm... have I mentioned on this forum that alcohol is a class 1 carcinogen? Yes, I believe I have... hence not optimal for marathon running - not at all an optimal form for hydration - period (& I don't care who has combined the two & says otherwise). But hey, try telling that to some people under the deceptive spell of alcohol. And whatever benefits you wish to ascribe to alcohol, there are far greater disadvantages... & far better alternatives for the desired benefit you claim you are after i.e. resveratrol & the many other forms of antioxidants.

I personally wouldn't touch the stuff but realize that others have the right to make their own lifestyle choices... with their own bodies.

However, others who are more enlightened on the topic also have the right to inform their brother or sister of the potential health dangers of an obvious poor lifestyle choice which has the medical/scientific evidence to support the risk of potential danger ... particularly when a related question is asked on a public forum. Crikey... maybe it's because they care .

Lemon juice & water anyone?

BH .. are you aware that good old "Oxygen" is also considered by some a carcinogen? along with just about anything else nowadays. see:

http://www.sciencedi...306987783900336

. . and don't tell me i should stop breathing ! .. that will definitely slow my training !

[undercover brother]

speedmeup, on 20 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

BH .. are you aware that good old "Oxygen" is also considered by some a carcinogen?

we need oxygen.
we don't need alcohol.

[speedmeup]

undercover brother, on 20 August 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

speedmeup, on 20 August 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

BH .. are you aware that good old "Oxygen" is also considered by some a carcinogen?

we need oxygen.
we don't need alcohol.

some might .. .. this paper for example shows a  decreased risk of rheumatoid arthritis in alcohol users in a Scandinavian study:

http://ard.highwire..../2/222.abstract

[iRonnie]

BEN-HUR, on 19 August 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

However, others who are more enlightened on the topic also have the right to inform their brother or sister of the potential health dangers of an obvious poor lifestyle choice which has the medical/scientific evidence to support the risk of potential danger ... particularly when a related question is asked on a public forum. Crikey... maybe it's because they care .

Lemon juice & water anyone?

In my experience people who really care, care all the time - not just when it suits them.  They don't bang on about how enlightened they are and how people who have a few drinks are " are under the deceptive spell of alcohol".  f**ken hell what load of old codswollop. Caring folk don't carry on with all the put downs that Matthew and David and others engage in on this forum. We are big boys and grals now and the "enlightened ones" don't need to tell others how to live theirr lives or how mightier than others you are for your choices.  Genuinely caring folk don't use their supposed concern to justify their ill-mannered, contemptuous and often harmful behaviours towards others.

Matthew (Beb Hur) and at times David (UCB) you two haven't  a clue about helping people make better lifestyle choices.  

You would do far better to post information without your judgemental comments on people's character.  ....

By the way you all.  I haven't had any alcohol since around this time last year.  Oh wait a minute, i had a few at my daughter's wedding.  Special occassion.   I don't miss the grog  at all .  

I had increased my mileage to 140k a week and the irony was i was feeling great until i came down with a serious illness.  Bellthorpe can confirm my fitness as i was really " cooking with gas" in the Sunshine Coast CC series.

I often wonder how much the stress from dealing with the bullies on this forum and other stresses throughout my life (and how i have dealt with them) have contributed to my illness.  Please, please, try to take care of yourselves and avoid  mean-spirited people or those who seek to put you down.  They are not worth the pain.  

i think certain opinion would also say that my having two beers a night may well have played a part.  All i can say to those who drink and run please read through the literature with an open mind.  Try to find literature that has no agenda and is genuinely caring and science based.   Because we are very fit doesn't mean we can over indulge in toxic substances.  Please take care of yourselves.   Talk to your family GP and get his or her opinion. The risk may be greater than popular opinion has us believing.  Coolrunning is just a talk forum.  There is no one here with a medical background  who is prepared to give helpful, sensible answers.  Vague, half-smart quips to serious questions may feed egos but are not helpful indeed they are potentially harmful.

Edited by iRonnie, 20 August 2012 - 07:39 PM.