Jump to content


10km in sub 40


  • You cannot reply to this topic
139 replies to this topic

#1 IrishRunnerDownUnder

    Newbie

  • Forum Member
  • Pip
  • 6 posts
  • Joined: 29-May 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Perth

Posted 25 April 2014 - 11:54 PM

Hi all,
I'm half way through a 12 week program to try and achieve the above. This is the one I've been roughly following
http://www.tri247.co...d=&category=run
As u can see, not heaps of miles in there. I ran 40.45 about a year ago and did 42.09 about 3 weeks ago. I'm sitting around the 20 min mark for 5km and reckon I'd probably be around the 41.40 mark for 10km now. Have a feeling I'm going to come up a bit short in 6 weeks time, but I figure it's worth sticking with the program.
Any advice?
Cheers

Support our Australian advertisers:

#2 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 30 June 2014 - 12:00 PM

Hi IrishRunner, how's the training going?
I've just completed my first marathon and my next goal is a sub-40 10k. My 5k races come in around the mid 19's, so hopefully sub-40 over 10k shouldn't be too bad but I hope to be able to smash it.
I plan on doing many speedy interval workouts at paces approx. 15 seconds faster than race pace for around 60 seconds at a time, some hill runs, and some long slow runs thrown in there too.
That program you linked suggests hill hopping, i've not heard of hill hopping before, and no long slow runs. Thoughts on these suggestions?

(P.S. I'm a half-irish runner :))

#3 Tiddischer

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Joined: 07-August 08
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Braunschweig

Posted 01 July 2014 - 09:09 PM

Here are some comments on the schedule:

- The total amount of running in this program is around 55 km/week. That is more or less the minimum for a sub 40. He makes up for the lack of volume by introducing a lot of quality. His comment is, that too much easy mileage is just tiring you down, and race pace is more important. But in my opinion too much fast running is also a high risk to leave you fatigued all the time...

- Especially the progress in the beginning from 12 x 400 in the first week to 20 x 400 in the third week might be too much.

- A 3 or 4 km trial at 10 km race pace every week might be ok, but later up to 8 (!) km is way too much for once a week. I would reduce this to every two weeks or two times in three weeks.

- Variation in the quality sessions is very low. Just 10 km race pace. I would substitute some of this with even faster running (great for running form, economy and making the race pace feel easy), and intermediate pace running (something around or slightly below threshold pace) because it is less taxing than the race pace and could be performed for a longer time (because it is not just important to practice race pace, but also race duration...)

To sum up: This plan might be ok, if it is just for the final weeks of sharpening and if a decent base of more mileage and lower quality has been laid before. And there should be more variety in the quality sessions.

#4 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 06 July 2014 - 09:34 PM

Cheers, good input Tiddischer. I agree on all your points, especially, like i mentioned, doing faster than race pace intervals. That's what doing intervals is all about!
Training programs are interesting but I've never been one to follow them very closely. Even self prescribed ones, I prefer to do whatever feels best for me at the time. If my legs are too tired from a tempo run to do intervals, I'll go for a longer slower run, if I'm feeling good enough to do more km's I'll do them, etc.

#5 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 08 July 2014 - 11:11 AM

My first post.

I have the same goal (sub-40min 10k) so thought I may as well post in this thread rather than start another. Background - I'm 44, been running casually pretty much since a teenager with a few short breaks here and there but never in a structured way and certainly never competitive, just a casual jogger. I ran a few fun runs and half marathons, did some basic marathon training schedules but never actually ran in one. I've not had time lately to do the mileage needed for a marathon program so I decided after participating in a local 10k fun run last year that I'd make it my goal to finish the run under 40mins this year.

Last year (October) I ran it in a bit over 46 minutes (can't remember exactly) without doing any specific training. I've never done intervals or speed training so I figured the quick way to pick up the pace would be to include some of that in my schedule. I found a 10k program (I think it was posted somewhere on this forum) from endurance sports training. It was excellent for me at the time. I used it to train for a 10k run in April this year and managed to finish in 41:25. I also ran a local 5k fun run in March while I was training for that in 20:03. Obviously a big improvement in pace, but I figured all of the easy wins were behind me and it would be harder to make gains from there on.

Since then I've spent a bit of time trying to understand the different types of training and building my own plan and trying to build up to decent endurance workouts. A typical week now looks like this:

Mon: Rest or recovery run (5-6km)
Tue: LT running on road, either steady state 40-50mins, tempo 30mins or cruise intervals 4-7mins with 1-2mins jog recovery aim to do a little over 30mins of hard running
Wed: Easy 8km
Thu: Intervals on a track - various repeats from 400m-1600m sometimes standing and sometimes jog recovery. Sometimes do a fartlek pyramid (400, 800, 1200, 1600, 1200, 800, 400), generally aim for about 8km of hard running
Fri: Rest or recovery run (5-6km)
Sat: Either rest or sometimes a fast-ish 5km if I'm feeling good
Sun: Long 17-20km

I've used McMillan calculator to work out training paces for the various runs and can stay within those ranges. I guess the mileage is a bit on the low side but I think my main problem is endurance at higher speed so I've focused on that. Also due to time constraints have tried to keep a low mileage plan.

While I'm able to stick to the training paces, I don't feel as though I'm improving significantly. Eg this morning I tried to challenge myself to complete cruise intervals at target 10k pace. I did 8 x 4min intervals with 1 min jog recovery trying to target 4:00/km pace in the intervals. I did OK in the first one (in fact went out too fast), then averaged 4:09 over all the subsequent 4 min intervals. I struggled until rep 6 when I finally found a rhythm but still averaged 4:08 after that. If I can't do 8km at 4min pace, even taking a 1min break about every km, I don't feel as though I could do 10km at that pace. I can hit the right pace comfortably when I'm doing track work with a longer recovery, I do 6x1600 repeats at average 6:21 (about 4:00/km pace) but that is with a 4min standing recovery so not very indicative.

I don't know if I'm being impatient or unrealistic, if I'm getting stale or what. I'm not sure how much improvement to expect on race day, maybe it isn't really a problem at all. Target race is in about 16 weeks, and I have a trial 10k race coming up in about a month so I guess that will give me a better gauge of where I am.

While I've been running a long time I don't have much experience in targeting a particular pace or doing the stamina workouts and how that translates into race performance so I'd appreciate any wise words from the experienced runners out there.

#6 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 09 July 2014 - 12:58 AM

Hmmm invergowrie, perhaps more kms is the key. Although you are running most days, perhaps you need more rest days. Perhaps someone with more experience could answer better.
If you've done a near 20 minute 5km, that's 4:00/km. So it sounds like you can do it, keep working at it!

I did some 400m intervals today. Could only manage 5 of them, they were tough but interestingly in hindsight they didn't seem so bad. They're so easy when I'm not doing them but so hard when I am!

#7 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 09 July 2014 - 06:10 AM

I know what you mean about the 400s. Last week I did 10x400m targeting 5K race pace (1:32/400m) with 200m jog recovery. I was daunted by the workout and worried I wouldn't get through it but once I got started it felt good, I quickly hit a rhythm and stuck with it and felt great afterwards. All times were consistent and below target, even felt strong enough to hammer rep 9.

I think part of my problem is dialling in the pace - when I'm on the track with a stopwatch it's easy as I can get feedback on pace every 100m and make small adjustments if needed. On the road with no markers, changes in incline and no easy way to check pace it highlights the fact my brain hasn't worked out the level of effort required so I find it very hard to find the rhythm that will get me there. With my pace all over the shop performance suffers. Maybe I should stay off the track for a few weeks and try to do race pace intervals on the road.

#8 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 10 July 2014 - 10:06 AM

I've never trained on a track, no access to one here as far as I know. I have used Google Earth to figure out which paths in the local park loop around to 400m and I do laps of that, trying to run at a pace that I can imagine going the whole way at.
I have problems with the shorter recovery distances, I tend to jog about as far as I ran in order to feel up to doing the next rep. I don't suspect this would be an issue for improvement, just takes longer!

#9 Tiddischer

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 233 posts
  • Joined: 07-August 08
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Braunschweig

Posted 10 July 2014 - 09:56 PM

Hi Invergowrie,

in my opinion your training looks very nice. It should be possible to run sub 40 if you stick to this plan. If it starts to feel easy then it might be a good idea to increase slightly either in volume or in intensity. You were on the right way trying to run the cruise intervals a bit faster. Don't be discouraged if it does not work for the first time. Just try again.
If hitting the target pace on the road is a problem maybe more race experience is necessary. You could do more than this one 10 km trial in the next 16 weeks. There is enough time to fit in another 1 to 2 races over 5 or 10 k before your main race.

#10 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 11 July 2014 - 09:52 AM

Thanks for that LiamNoir and Tiddischer, appreciate the advice and encouragement. I live in Armidale on the NSW Northern Tablelands so there aren't many opportunities for 10k races, but I'm hoping to do a few 5k time trials at the local park run which is starting up soon. That should give me a good gauge of where I am, and I think you're right that a lot of my problem is to do with pacing.

Bit of a reality check today - did a session on the track of 6 x 1600m repeats with 400m jog recovery, a very hard session for me and I'm feeling it. I averaged 6:33 over the 1600m repeats (4:05/km pace) which is OK except that the level of effort required was massive and I had nothing left at the end. Still plenty of time to work on that though. Looking at this and previous hard sessions as well as splits from the races I've done I can see I have a habit of going out too hard and not being able to maintain it. I need to make a conscious effort to target negative splits over the next few sessions to try and train myself out of that...

LiamNoir, I see from your sig you're targeting sub-40 in Sep, how's the training coming along?

#11 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 18 July 2014 - 10:52 AM

View PostInvergowrie, on 11 July 2014 - 09:52 AM, said:


LiamNoir, I see from your sig you're targeting sub-40 in Sep, how's the training coming along?

Yep that's the plan! I've been doing a few intervals and tempo runs in my training lately. I did a moderate pace training 10k in 44:11, I could likely knock a few minutes off that if it was a race. My 5k times are still floating around 19:30. I've got about 7 weeks before my targeted 10k race, hopefully if I keep doing what i'm doing I'll get to sub-40 by then.

Good work doing 6x1600m that's nearly 10k just in intervals!

#12 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 22 July 2014 - 09:22 AM

Looks like you're well on track, a 19:30 5K race time is pretty close to what you need and plenty of time to sharpen up.

The 6x1600 is a tough session. It's part of a 10k specific interval progression I found. The idea is to start with 6x1600 at target 10k race pace and gradually increase to 3 x 3200 @ 10k race pace 1-2 weeks before target race. That run was a trial to see if I could at least get through the first session and while I was pretty hammered at the end it felt good to get through it.

#13 StormFront

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 170 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Darwin

Posted 15 August 2014 - 06:55 PM

5x200 w/100m jog recoveries, then 5x400 w/200m jog recoveries and finish with 5x800 w/400m jog recoveries.
I want to get my 17m56sec Park Run/5k time towards 17m 30secs.
I ran sub 39 mins for 10k during a 88min HM.

Edited by DaftPunk, 15 August 2014 - 06:58 PM.


#14 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 16 August 2014 - 12:58 PM

Some great times there DaftPunk, and that looks like a tough intervals session. Out of interest what pace do you target for the hard intervals?

I've been a bit lazy on the interval sessions lately, have only really done tempo and progression runs as well as the long run over the past 3 weeks. It's helped to get rid of some niggles I've had and I don't feel as though I've lost too much so not majorly concerned. I'm doing the 10k in the Tamworth running festival tomorrow as a bit of a trial, then back into a more solid regime leading up to my target race in November.

#15 StormFront

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 170 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Darwin

Posted 16 August 2014 - 01:07 PM

200s in 40secs, 400s in 80secs, 800s in 3mins.

#16 esjay

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 275 posts
  • Joined: 13-September 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 16 August 2014 - 03:46 PM

did you crash in that half daftpunk?  Was that your HM PB?

#17 RaoulDuke

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 10
  • Sex:Male

Posted 18 August 2014 - 08:31 PM

I've been lurking in the background to this thread, undertaking my own sub 40 quest. I wanted to wait until I had some runs on the board before posting.

Well, I went sub 40 for the first time yesterday so I thought I would offer up what I did in training. I was lucky enough to have some really good advice from an excellent runner.

First, some background. I started out running about 4 years ago and until yesterday my only official 10K was a 46:12 at the 2010 Run Melbourne. I have a 1:42 HM and 3:34 marathon but they are both from 2010-2011 because since 2012 I've been mostly focused on trails and ultras. I'm pretty confident that both my HM and marathon PBs would be quicker if I'd run one of them in the last couple of years.

That's a long way of saying my road times will probably be of little value as a benchmark to most people targeting 39:xx.

What is more relevant is my Tan PB of 14:40 set in January this year (3:50 pace over 3.83k with 40m of elevation for those non-Melburnians).

After injuring my ankle in Feb and no running for 10 weeks I managed a 43 min 10k in training in June which was close to my limit. Then about a month ago I managed a 14:46 Tan and thought I might be able give 40 a shake.

When I mentioned it to one of my trail running friends (ex 2:15 marathoner) he asked me to do 1k, 2k and 3k time trials and get back to him with my times. They were 3:23, 7:14 and 11:04.

Based on that, he said my speed was good,  so short intervals were of limited value,  but I needed work on endurance. He set me three speed sessions:

4x1000m at 3:40 pace with a 1 min float
3x2000m at 3:54 pace with a 1 min float
(these alternated weekly, didn't do both in the same week)
12k tempo averaging 4:15/km but with last 5k averaging 4:05 and last 2k flat out.

This was in addition to my weekly long run, with a hilly trail run optional, plus recovery runs. And he suggested a 5K race the week before.

So this has been my training and I'm not lying when I say they were bloody hard, especially the intervals.

The weekend before last I ran a 5k parkrun and shocked myself when I ran 18:47. It all looked good for the 10k.

So I lined up this Sunday at a Vic Road Runners event at Princes Park feeling pretty confident. The first thing I must say is that the is a big difference between racing 5k and 10k. The fatigue builds up very quickly after 5k.

There weren't official km markers so all  I could go on was my GPS watch which is never ideal in a race. The 6-8km section was the toughest and with 2k to go I thought I was in trouble but the interval training really kicked in and I told myself it was just like a final interval.

In the end I ran the last km at 3:40 pace and finished with plenty of time to spare - I'd run 39:04.

I hope this may be of some use to someone looking to go sub 40. For now, it's back to trail running for me (with the possible exception of a road HM a month from now)

Cheers


#18 PsychoKitten

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 11
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:East Ryde

Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:27 PM

Congratulations RaoulDuke on your breaking 40 mins and sharing your story.

I could sort of guess from your info but could you let us know you what your average weekly kms in the lead up to your race.

Edited by PsychoKitten, 18 August 2014 - 10:11 PM.


#19 RaoulDuke

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 10
  • Sex:Male

Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:52 PM

Cheers PK.

A typical week would look something like:

Mon: rest
Tue: intervals (incl warm up and cool down maybe 9k)
Wed: 6k easy recovery
Thu: 12k tempo
Fri: 26k long run
Sat: rest
Sun: 20k trail run

All up around 70k.

If my legs weren't feeling great on the Thurs, I'd just do an easy 8k and do the 12k tempo on the Sunday (and ditch the trail run for that week)

#20 lactatehead

    1000-club gold-rated CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,404 posts
  • Joined: 23-July 03
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 18 August 2014 - 09:53 PM

Most people should be able to achieve a sub 40 just from aerobic training. If you run 3 long runs a week, 2 medium runs and a marathon pace tempo run, you`ll become progressively faster week after week without having to do any gut wrenching sessions. Anything run faster than threshold pace should be avoided until you have done 8 to 10 weeks of pure aerobic work. All of the quicker sessions should come after you have built a good aerobic base. It will surprise many people how fast they can become before they do any interval work. Whereas interval work gives you quick gains that plateau after only a few weeks, after which you can start digging yourself into a hole.

#21 PsychoKitten

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts
  • Joined: 02-August 11
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:East Ryde

Posted 18 August 2014 - 10:22 PM

lactatehead I can see what you have written agrees with how RaoulDuke achieved his sub 40. Only 18km of his 70km per week were anaerobic which is roughly 1/4. Ive read that a 10km race effort is 90% aerobic and 10% anaerobic so it makes a lot of sense to focus on the aerobic side of it.

Edited by PsychoKitten, 18 August 2014 - 10:29 PM.


#22 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 19 August 2014 - 10:07 AM

Cheers, and congrats RaoulDuke, that's a great time - I'm alternating between motivated by your success and despondent at my lack of progress :p.

I can see that increasing volume seems a logical step for me. I've only been running about 50km per week on average due to other commitments and lack of daylight. My long run is 20km at the moment and I only do that once per week on Sunday - to do it on a weekday I'll need to run with a headlamp which I guess is not so bad.

For someone like me who's been pretty much a casual jogger for decades interval and tempo training has really helped me to learn to run fast rather than just plod around enjoying myself. Even if the physical improvements have not been huge I think my ability to cope mentally has improved massively over the past 6 months, to just keep the legs rolling over quickly under fatigue is something I've never tried before and is quite rewarding. Unfortunately I still have a long way to go... I ran a trial 10k fun run on the weekend. I was right on pace up to 6k, lost a few seconds over km 7-8 then tanked and dropped well over a minute in the last 2k. Not overly disappointed as it was a good learning experience and only the 2nd 10k I've ever raced.

I still have 10 weeks until my target race. I had planned a program with 1 long run, 1 interval session and 1 tempo per week with a few recovery/easy runs in between, 50-60km per week. After reading this I might hold off on the intervals and focus on building up a second longer run (15k should be easily do-able) and increase the duration of the tempo then re-introduce intervals 4 weeks prior to the race. Will also aim to do a regular 5k parkrun most weeks and see where that takes me.

#23 MikeLikeRun

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 203 posts
  • Joined: 24-December 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Buderim

Posted 19 August 2014 - 11:56 AM

View Postlactatehead, on 18 August 2014 - 09:53 PM, said:

Most people should be able to achieve a sub 40 just from aerobic training. If you run 3 long runs a week, 2 medium runs and a marathon pace tempo run, you`ll become progressively faster week after week without having to do any gut wrenching sessions. Anything run faster than threshold pace should be avoided until you have done 8 to 10 weeks of pure aerobic work. All of the quicker sessions should come after you have built a good aerobic base. It will surprise many people how fast they can become before they do any interval work. Whereas interval work gives you quick gains that plateau after only a few weeks, after which you can start digging yourself into a hole.

How long is long?  I dream of 40, but am more like 45.  Just tapering for the sunshine coast half marathon after a self created program with a 60 min and 80 min hard work out, 2 x 60 min easy but hilly, a 2 hour long run and a 1 hour strength/core session.

I feel like I've been plateuing a bit, and had pretty much made up my mind to ditch or heavily reduce the interval training and focus on increasing my 'easy run' pace.  And probably a lot of hills as my summer events are likely to be hilly trail runs.  Was thinking of making it two runs at 80 mins and extending the long run to 2:30.  Maybe extend the 80 min runs to 90 mins, but that starts to put pressure on the daily schedule I've worked out.

#24 StormFront

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 170 posts
  • Joined: 27-January 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Darwin

Posted 19 August 2014 - 12:49 PM

View Postesjay, on 16 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

did you crash in that half daftpunk?  Was that your HM PB?
Strong head wind after 10km and I took one gel at 15km mark without water.
I ran 5k/Park Run in 17min 56s the day before HM race.
I have another shot at HM race, I will take no gels and stick to Powerade.

Edited by DaftPunk, 19 August 2014 - 01:13 PM.


#25 RaoulDuke

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 10
  • Sex:Male

Posted 19 August 2014 - 03:58 PM

Invergowie - my Friday long run is comprised of an early (5am) start, headlamp and run in to work along some bike paths. Building my long run into my Friday commute has been really good for my running as I'm only able to run on one morning on the weekend.

The hills on my weekly trail run also work wonders. Not sure if you're near any hilly trails but if so I'd definitely recommend giving them a go.

#26 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 19 August 2014 - 08:48 PM

Thanks RaoulDuke. Running commute is not an option for me on weekdays but if I get out by 5:30 I should be able to manage 1:30 with the help of a headlamp. I live in the country and my long runs usually incorporate bitumen and gravel roads as well as grassy stock routes so fairly varied terrain. Though there are long, flat stretches I usually work in some pretty reasonable hills as well. I don't think I'll have too much trouble with a 15k mid-week run so I'll give that a go and try to build from there.

#27 esjay

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 275 posts
  • Joined: 13-September 10
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Brisbane

Posted 19 August 2014 - 09:49 PM

View PostDaftPunk, on 19 August 2014 - 12:49 PM, said:

View Postesjay, on 16 August 2014 - 03:46 PM, said:

did you crash in that half daftpunk?  Was that your HM PB?
Strong head wind after 10km and I took one gel at 15km mark without water.
I ran 5k/Park Run in 17min 56s the day before HM race.
I have another shot at HM race, I will take no gels and stick to Powerade.

I don't doubt you will have a great performance at your HM, best of luck.

I'm running the 10k at the Sunshine Coast marathon festival next weekend, last year was the first time I broke 40.  I'm coming in underdone due to viral infection/knee injuries but I still think I can get it again.  Probably averaged 20km per week (with cross training) over the last month.  I managed C2South at under 4min/km pace with similar training, just need to focus on the negative split as it seems to be where I shine.

#28 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 30 August 2014 - 06:29 PM

Good work Raoul, thanks for sharing.
I hope everyone's training's going well.
I'm a week out from my 10km race. I did a 19:36 at parkrun today, which is around about my average over the last 2 months - I don't seem to be getting any better! It may be due to my reduced km's over the last month or so after overdoing it on a 38km hilly trail run. Feeling better now and will have done a 70km week after tomorrow's long run before next week's tapering. I'm putting my hopes on my endurance being up to scratch and being able to hold the 5k pace for 10k.
Success or fail, I'm going to fire up my speed work and try for a comfortable sub 19 5k by the end of the year.

#29 RaoulDuke

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 10
  • Sex:Male

Posted 30 August 2014 - 07:18 PM

Cheers LN, let us know how you go. My first thought is that holding on to 5K pace for 10K sounds pretty tough! Good luck!

#30 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 30 August 2014 - 10:07 PM

Good luck LiamNoir, just trust in the training and you'll get there. Look forward to hearing how you go...

#31 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 08 September 2014 - 08:49 AM

Race done! Went out at 3:50/km for the first couple of ks, then slipped a bit but held a ~4:00-4:10/km pace from there.
Official time pending but my watch tells me I crossed the finish at around 40:30.
Was tough to keep pushing the speed, course had a few little hills, not many, but 7 turnaround points and some other slow points. On a straight flat course I'm sure I'd have done sub 40!
I'm happy with the result however, smashed my PB of 43:11. Doing a 12k race in a couple of weeks that is straight and overall downhill so I hope to do sub 40 over 10 of those ks.

#32 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 08 September 2014 - 01:47 PM

Nice work on a huge PB. A shame to miss the sub-40 by such a small margin, but a great result anyway.

Right on the cusp of it now, good luck with the friendlier course...

I'm still banging away at my training, not seeing much improvement I'm afraid but it isn't from lack of effort so I'm not letting it get me down.

#33 RaoulDuke

    CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPip
  • 59 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 10
  • Sex:Male

Posted 09 September 2014 - 07:04 AM

Massive PB Liam, well done. Hairpin turns are a killer when you're looking for a fast time so it sounds like you're right on track.

#34 UnfitnessFanatic

    1000-club gold-rated CoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,039 posts
  • Joined: 20-July 09
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Port Macquarie

Posted 09 September 2014 - 04:44 PM

Fwiw when I first broke 40min my first 5k was bang on 20min.  Second 5 is where it counts when you're right on the edge of breaking it.  Reality is if you're touch and go then you should be going out at about 3:57 pace on your garmin and trying to hold that.  3:50 is too fast while you're at the stage you are now.

Good luck with your future attempts.

#35 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 30 September 2014 - 04:59 PM

Looks like I'm not going to get there in my target race this year. A couple of weeks ago I pulled up sore above the ankle after a 25k run, didn't really recover properly and after my next long run a week later it got worse. I've now not been able to run much at all for over 2 weeks and still feeling a bit sore even walking. I find I can run around 8-10k very slowly but can't pick up the intensity even to my normal long run pace and need a few days off between. I'm guessing it's a peroneal strain, just using RICE treatment for it but recovery is very slow. With target race in less than 4 weeks I'm not sure I'll even run, but if I do won't set an ambitious target time...

Will have to postpone this goal unfortunately....

#36 LiamNoir

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 173 posts
  • Joined: 04-August 13
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Adelaide SA

Posted 30 September 2014 - 07:16 PM

Sorry to hear Invergowrie about your injury. Ease back into it I'd say, do what you can and see how it feels in a few weeks.
I knocked a few more seconds off my 10k time during a 12k bringing me down to 40:26.
Then last weekend I ran an ultra and now can barely even walk, 2 days afterwards. I was going to maybe have another crack at the 10k before the end of the year, but easy does it for me too for now.

#37 McNick

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 640 posts
  • Joined: 15-July 12
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 30 September 2014 - 10:11 PM

View PostInvergowrie, on 30 September 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

Looks like I'm not going to get there in my target race this year. A couple of weeks ago I pulled up sore above the ankle after a 25k run, didn't really recover properly and after my next long run a week later it got worse. I've now not been able to run much at all for over 2 weeks and still feeling a bit sore even walking. I find I can run around 8-10k very slowly but can't pick up the intensity even to my normal long run pace and need a few days off between. I'm guessing it's a peroneal strain, just using RICE treatment for it but recovery is very slow. With target race in less than 4 weeks I'm not sure I'll even run, but if I do won't set an ambitious target time...

Will have to postpone this goal unfortunately....

Sounds like what happened to me after a longish run back in March. Turned into Achilles Tendonopathy and cost me about 3 months of training.
If it is Tendonopathy, I suggest reading a few threads on it on this site, as quite a few have had it.
My recommendation is to start heal drops before each run, and don't try too much rest, as it actually needs some running to work its way out. Ease back into running slowly increasing the km's and the pace, but not too fast, as that can bring it back.
I lost a fair amount of time to this, and the key is to manage it. My Achilles still hurt during runs, but heal drops at each warm up have definitely helped me get over it.

I've  got MM in two weeks, and then I'm focussing on shorter distances. I will try to improve my 10km PB during City2Sea (15km) in November, and then next year have a crack at getting under 42min, before trying for sub-40 towards the end of next year.

#38 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 01 October 2014 - 06:38 AM

Thanks LiamNoir, McNick. I don't think it's Achilles related as the pain is on the outside of the leg about 5cm above the malleous and feels like it is right on the outside leg bone. I don't feel any pain in the achilles region, can rub/massage there without any discomfort.

Nice work on the PB LiamNoir, closer with every race.

#39 Tauros

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Sydney, NSW

Posted 02 October 2014 - 11:03 AM

^ If it is a peroneal strain be careful as I've heard of cases of it flaring up quite badly. I've had mine flare up a little recently and some fairly aggressive massage therapy did the trick to settle it down. If you've got an decent sports massage person nearby go see them maybe.

#40 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 10 October 2014 - 02:15 PM

After a bit of RICE and cross training and a return to light running it didn't improve much so went to the physio today. Turns out I have a stress fracture on the fibula :( .

Guess it's time to reacquaint myself with the pool and bike for 6 weeks or so...

#41 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 16 March 2015 - 06:09 AM

So now I'm back to this thread and in a much better place than when I wrote the previous post.

Since my last post I've had:

* 10 weeks of no running, I did some swimming and cycling but not much because I don't enjoy it.
* 7 weeks of Pfitzinger's return to running plan which got me back to the point I could run for an hour
* 2 x 21 day cycles of the Time-to-Run sub-40 10k program.

My initial goal on the new program was to run 5km in sub-20. After 2 cycles I achieved that on the weekend and I now set my sights on the main prize for me, a sub-40 10km. An opportunity coming up with a race in about 5 weeks but realistically I don't think I'm there yet.

#42 lazydog

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 171 posts
  • Joined: 13-August 12
  • Sex:Female
  • Location:Perth

Posted 16 March 2015 - 11:34 AM

Great comeback Invergowrie!  You smashed the 5km... I'd say a 40min 10km is a definite possibility in 5 weeks.
I'd try 1 week recovery, 3 weeks build,  1 week taper--- and give it a good crack!

#43 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 24 March 2015 - 08:32 AM

I'm doing the Time-to-Run sub 40min 10km program. It's a 21 day cycle but my target race doesn't fit neatly with that so I'm doing the first 2 weeks then starting a new 3 week cycle to take me to 19th April race day. Here's a summary of week 1 (the week starts on a Tuesday).

Day 1 60-70min easy | 1:05:54 | 14.04km | Avg Pace 4:42 | Avg HR 133
Day 2 30min easy | 30:48 | 6.50km | Avg Pace 4:44 | Avg HR 132
Day 3 5x2km R90
Rep 1 | 8:01 | MHR 158 | RHR 90
Rep 2 | 8:05 | MHR 161 | RHR 96
Rep 3 | 8:01 | MHR 163 | RHR 101
Rep 4 | 8:11 | MHR 161 | RHR 96
Rep 5 | 8:11 | MHR 165
Total: 40:29 (Average Pace 4:02/km)
Halfway through Rep 3 I realised I had gone too hard and started to struggle. Rep 4 was very tough and I came close to giving up, Rep 5 was murder from the first 100m but I pushed through it to complete.
Day 4 | Rest
Day 5 | 90min long | 1:29:02 | 17.97km | Avg Pace 4:57 | Avg HR 138
Day 6 | 30min easy | Skipped this session as I was traveling
Day 7 | 10km easy | 48:01 | 10.15km | Avg Pace 4:44 | Avg HR 135

Weekly total: 58.66km

Edited by Invergowrie, 24 March 2015 - 09:00 AM.


#44 Zedzded

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • Joined: 25-March 15
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Perth

Posted 25 March 2015 - 04:43 PM

View PostInvergowrie, on 24 March 2015 - 08:32 AM, said:

I'm doing the Time-to-Run sub 40min 10km program. It's a 21 day cycle but my target race doesn't fit neatly with that so I'm doing the first 2 weeks then starting a new 3 week cycle to take me to 19th April race day. Here's a summary of week 1 (the week starts on a Tuesday).

Day 1 60-70min easy | 1:05:54 | 14.04km | Avg Pace 4:42 | Avg HR 133
Day 2 30min easy | 30:48 | 6.50km | Avg Pace 4:44 | Avg HR 132
Day 3 5x2km R90
Rep 1 | 8:01 | MHR 158 | RHR 90
Rep 2 | 8:05 | MHR 161 | RHR 96
Rep 3 | 8:01 | MHR 163 | RHR 101
Rep 4 | 8:11 | MHR 161 | RHR 96
Rep 5 | 8:11 | MHR 165
Total: 40:29 (Average Pace 4:02/km)
Halfway through Rep 3 I realised I had gone too hard and started to struggle. Rep 4 was very tough and I came close to giving up, Rep 5 was murder from the first 100m but I pushed through it to complete.
Day 4 | Rest
Day 5 | 90min long | 1:29:02 | 17.97km | Avg Pace 4:57 | Avg HR 138
Day 6 | 30min easy | Skipped this session as I was traveling
Day 7 | 10km easy | 48:01 | 10.15km | Avg Pace 4:44 | Avg HR 135

Weekly total: 58.66km

I don't really know what I'm talking about, but looking at that, it seems that other than day 3, all runs are done at an easy pace?

#45 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 25 March 2015 - 06:04 PM

Yep, in the first week there's only the 1 interval session. Over the 21 day cycle there are 5 fast workouts:

5x2km at about 10km race pace Rest 90sec
6x1km at about 5km race pace Rest 60sec
10x400m at <5km race pace Rest 60sec
5km paced run (5km at 10km race pace)
Race (every third week) up to 15km

There's only 1 longish run of 90min, the rest are easy (either 30/60min or 10km) and there are 3 rest days.

So far it is producing results for me but it's early days, I'm only in week 8. There are options to do double days and more distance if performance plateaus.

#46 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 12 April 2015 - 01:14 PM

I haven't been very good at keeping up to date here. After my last update completed week 2 and then started on the cycle again.

Week 2 kicked off with 6x1km @ 5km race pace with 60sec rest between intervals.

Rep 1 | 4:02
Rep 2 | 3:52
Rep 3 | 3:54
Rep 4 | 3:50
Rep 5 | 3:51
Rep 6 | 3:42

Total: 23:11 (Avg 3:51)

This was 24 secs faster than the last time I had done the session so I was quite happy with that. Then moved onto some easy runs and a rest day.

Day 9 | 30min Easy | 30:04 | 6.22km | Avg HR 127 | Avg Pace 4:50
Day 10 | 60min Easy | 54:51 | 12.13km | Avg HR 139 | Avg Pace 4:31
Day 11 | Rest

Day 12 is a paced 5km run, meant to be done at around 10km race pace. I started to struggle a little here, think I may have been getting ill or something because I really wasn't running well at all and resting HR was fairly high.

Day 12 | 5k Paced | 20:36 | 5km | Avg HR 157 | Avg Pace 4:06
Day 13 | 60min Easy | 59:29 | 12.07km | Avg HR 141 | Avg Pace 4:55

The paced run was hard, but still couldn't get under 4:06 pace which was a bit disappointing. Then the next day (easy 60min) felt terrible, HR was way up and pace was way down. I decided to take the last day of week 2 off, and the 1st day of the next cycle to try and freshen up.

The break seemed to do the trick, I came back with an easy 30min where HR and pace were back to normal:

30:23 | 6.60km | Avg Pace 4:36 | Avg HR 136

Then did the 5x2km @ 10km race pace with 90 sec rest again, picked up a little improvement.

Rep 1 | 8:06 | MHR 161 | RHR 97
Rep 2 | 8:01 | MHR 163 | RHR 110
Rep 3 | 8:01 | MHR 163 | RHR 110
Rep 4 | 8:05 | MHR 164 | RHR 94
Rep 5 | 8:01 | MHR 167

Total: 40:14 (4:01min/km)

I had to mess around a bit with the schedule due to some family commitments, so ended up missing another easy run and doing the long run (90 mins) on Sunday.

Long run | 1:26:02 | 18.06km | Avg Pace 4:46 | Avg HR 137

Pace on the long run is improving at the same average HR, so some good progress there. The long run was followed by some easy recovery runs, then the 5x1km @ 5km race pace session.

Easy 30min | 30:18 | 6.41km | Avg Pace 4:44 | Avg HR 133
Easy 10km | 49:01 | 10.17km | Avg Pace 4:49 | Avg HR 137

The 5x1km session was a bit of a step backward, certainly in part due to the weather as it dropped to 5 degrees with a 27km/h wind blowing down the straight.

Rep 1 | 3:54 | MHR 158 | RHR 79
Rep 2 | 3:58 | MHR 161 | RHR 103
Rep 3 | 3:55 | MHR 165 | RHR 93
Rep 4 | 3:59 | MHR 163 | RHR 98
Rep 5 | 3:56 | MHR 167 | RHR 98
Rep 6 | 4:00 | MHR 163

Total: 23:42 | Avg Pace 3:57/km
(last time 23:11 | 3:51/km)

Not too worried about one little setback. I then did a 60min easy run and skipped a day to get me back on schedule.

55:40 | 12.10 km | Avg Pace 4:36 | Avg HR 139

Yesterday was the 5km paced run, which I did at the local parkrun. I ran it in 19:51 which was probably a bit harder than I should have gone, but not an all out effort.

Followed that up with a 60min easy run this morning:

1:01:32 | 13.4km | Avg Pace 4:36 | Avg HR 138

The pace on easy runs has been coming down though I don't feel I've been pushing it too hard, still feels quite relaxed.

Now into the last week before the race on Sunday. A fairly light week, with one intervals session (10x400m @ sub 5km race pace), a kind of fartlek (30min easy then 6 x 1min fast then 1min slow with fast interval at 10km race pace) and a few easy efforts in between.

I don't feel like I'm in sub-40 shape yet. My target is sub-41 which would be a new PB for me (current PB is 41:25). I'll still give it a good crack and see what I can do, just looking forward to the experience.

Edited by Invergowrie, 12 April 2015 - 01:15 PM.


#47 asherama

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 169 posts
  • Joined: 13-September 11
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Melbourne

Posted 12 April 2015 - 02:01 PM

Thanks for sharing your training Invergowrie.
I'm not targeting the 10 km at the moment but is something I feel the need to tick off at some stage, current PB is 42:06.
In the midst of a marathon cycle and current focus is increasing volume/endurance.  So my week looks a bit different but I can relate to those paces.

Ran a half marathon this morning in a smidge over 89 min.  Plugged that in McMillan and out popped 39:59 which tempts me to find an event that fits the schedule.

#48 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 19 April 2015 - 01:49 PM

The only quality session I did last week was 10x400m with 60sec rest. A very consistent session with average 400m time of 1:22. Also a couple of easy paced runs in there. I had been feeling some pain in the left leg, in the hip, knee, calf and ankle so decided to take 3 days off running before the race.

It wasn't a very challenging course, no major hills though there are a lot of gradual inclines. There had been a lot of rain overnight but it held off during the race. Some of the course was on dirt/gravel roads and I nearly took a tumble. I also took a wrong turn near the finish and had to back-track a few metres.

Unbelievably I ran it in 40min flat, not a second more or less. Just 1 second faster and I'd be sub-40! Not that a second really matters, but it's good to know the training is working and I'm on the cusp as I really didn't expect to hit that mark today. There's also some suggestion the course may have been a couple of hundred metres short, hard to tell really. I'm very happy with the run, though another second faster would have been very nice.

#49 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 26 April 2015 - 08:56 AM

Pulled up with a very sore lower back after race day. Probably in part due to the race, not stretching properly after runs and in part from spending the previous day hunched over a piano I was disassembling.

Whatever the cause, running was out of the question so I took some time off. With no races coming up in the near future decided it would be a good time to take a break from the training cycle and do a bit of base work. Had a full 6 days off running, back into it today with a 60min easy run. Felt fine once I got over the weather (5 degrees and 30km/h winds with apparent temp 0.5 degrees with a bit of rain). Build up starts Tuesday for 3 weeks before getting back into the normal cycle.

#50 Invergowrie

    veryCoolRunner

  • Forum Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 223 posts
  • Joined: 07-July 14
  • Sex:Male
  • Location:Armidale

Posted 08 July 2015 - 01:09 PM

Well, that last post was a long time ago....

I started my build-up program but during a long run after running hills (slow) the previous day my achilles started playing up. I ended up limping home, found a big nodule on the achilles to go along with the soreness and was forced to take some time off. I started up after a few weeks rest with easy 30min runs every 2nd day as the achilles started to improved, but apparently that was a bit early and it flared up again after a couple of weeks, so more downtime. I went away on holiday (Vanuatu) and started doing some easy runs there, no pain! Back at home now, and after a couple of weeks running easy 30-60mins every 2nd day with no further symptoms I'm ready to start again.

I ran a 4km time trial in 16:18, not great but that's to be expected after so long off and I'm hoping it won't take too long to get back into shape.

I'm a bit frustrated at being so injury prone lately. The achilles injury was particularly annoying as I had just had a week of rest, and despite having a sore lower back had no hint at all of any achilles pain until the minute it gave up on me. I guess it's safe to assume the lower back and achilles problems are somehow related but my knowledge of biomechanics is not so good that I can figure it out.

Intervals tomorrow, 5x2km with 90sec standing recovery. Planning to start slow and feel my way through this session as it's quite a tough one! Target pace is 8:20 for the 2km, but I won't focus too much on that.