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#1 ag

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 02:54 PM

With the death on the weekend of Rene Rivkin and recent death of Paul Hester, there has been a lot of media talk on depression.

It strikes me as ironic that some people have money, fame and even work in an industry that they love and still it's not enough.

What has this got to do with running? Well I got to thinking that running is one of few sports/pastimes where you feel good about yourself. Your body feels strong and your mind is content knowing that even if you do nothing else on a particular day, at least you have done something for your health.

Could I be over simplifying things? Do you know of any famous athletes that suffered from depression?.

Just a thought
Alex

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#2 Gronk

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:26 PM

Dame Edna once said that depression was simply a person wallowing in their own selfishness.

Paul Hester's selfishness has now compounded to profoundly effect his 2 young daughters. Rivkin has left 2 older sons.

Many would argue that it's a medical condition rather than just a character flaw. Maybe. I tend to go with Edna's view.

Gronk

#3 Little K

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:26 PM

A high profile AFL player at Hawthorn (J Thompson)last yr announced he has clinical depression. It affects all walks, and i'm not sure if exercise makes someone less prone. my best mate has gone through it for the past 9mths, and he trains very hard at least once a day.

Gronk, you are oversimplfying it, and that comment is basically an insult to anyone who has depression. My dad has suffered from it, and as i said so does my best mate. it IS a medical condidtion, that much cant be debated. it's not something a sufferer can just switch off as they wish. attitudes like that highlight the general misunderstanding of the condition in this country.

#4 Amjan

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:30 PM

well, I very strongly disagree with Gronk. Depression is a serious issue.

That seems obvious to me, so I will just stick with saying that studies indicate that exercise does have a positive effect on depression, whether because it affects the seratonin levels or body temperature (as one study I saw noted suggested). It certainly seems to be recommended for people with depression.

#5 shuffle_run

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:30 PM

having money, love, good life etc has nothing whatsoever to do with depression. It affect people from all walks of life, rich, poor, athletic & couch potatos.  Depression is a medical condition, a chemical imbalance that cannot simply be fixed with a "get over it" /  "what have you got to complain about" attitiude.   They need help and many cannot even recognise it themselves.

#6 tim

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:42 PM

unless you have suffered from depression I imagine it would be hard to understand it.  

Maybe we should think of people with depression the same as we think of people who constantly get ITB.  You can do a bunch of things to manage it but you will always be prone to a weakness in that area.  

Interesting enough people with ITB are not told it is all in their head so just stop wallowing in their injury and get out there and run.

#7 RunDave

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:42 PM

I think depression is a very complicated issue, and it is very easy to blame the individual. Don't forget that not every depressed person kills themself. Living with a depressed person may in some instances be harder than living on without them.

I think the big issue is not on the individual level but on a social and cultural level. How is it that people can be so unhappy in a culture that has so much? and how is it that the same culture can just sit back and see so many people going through depression and not say "wait a minute, there must be something wrong here"?

I think it is quite likely that some runners do suffer depression despite it being so good for you. Examples: person with eating disorders and body image problems uses running to lose more weight but still isn't happy with the way they look. A son/daughter/partner runs to seek approval of a parent/partner and no matter how hard they try doesn't get it.

I don't think that running would cause depression, it would just be an agent for your unhappiness.

BTW, the above doesn't represent how I feel (I do have numerous problems, but depression isn't one of them), it is just an observation of others plights.

#8 vat

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:44 PM

Gronk, I generally toe the line of being friedly, but I'll cut to the chase here and tell you that it is that sort of attitude to depression that is a significant part of the reason we as a society are so poor at dealing with mental health issues, and why so many people with mental illness are now ending up in prisons instead of institutionalised care - the recent case of Cornelia Rau being a prime example.  And frankly, it pisses me off.

I lost a very dear friend to suicide in August last year.  She used exercise in addition to her medication to control her severe depression, something she had battled for over 10 years since her mid-teens.  She was an active, intelligent, wonderful person, but kept her 'down' side very hidden, to the point that many of us were unaware of it.  Sadly, her ankles, ruined from softball, and her ongoing back problem restricted her ability to exercise and I think this contributed to her decline.

She suffered a genuine, bona fide illness, as insidious as any cancer.

The sad thing here is that despite a very public diagnosis, the financial means to access appropriate treatment and medication, Rene still suicided.  1 in 6 people diagnosed with bipolar depression suicide.  If this were some sort of physical illness, there'd be appeals and fun runs and special ribbons.  How many of you have even heard of  Beyond Blue?

#9 Gronk

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 03:56 PM

quote:


Originally posted by Amjan:
well, I very strongly disagree with Gronk. Depression is a serious issue.

That seems obvious to me, so I will just stick with saying that studies indicate that exercise does have a positive effect on depression, whether because it affects the seratonin levels or body temperature (as one study I saw noted suggested). It certainly seems to be recommended for people with depression.

Depression is a serious issue. Depression  has a ripple effect throughout the family unit and the greater community. So it must be treated seriously.

Perhaps many will need medical/clinical intervention to help them climb out of their hole. I see many people however who fail to cope with crisis in their lives, jump on the Depression bandwagon and give up. Whilst I certainly am not amoungst the "get over it" brigade, I think that the battle must first be won within. This link better explains my point of view.

Gronk

#10 Rev Shankly

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:04 PM

Vat

I`ve been fortunate enough to hear a couple of talks given by Doctors associated with Beyond Blue and would suggest that anyone who needs educating on this issue to take a quick or even slow look at their website, they do great work for a much maligned part of our society

I`ve also lost a friend to suicide and it is without doubt a nasty viscious disease and to see people struggle to a point where they think that their option is to end their life is heartbreaking

Rev

#11 Mouse

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:10 PM

Hi guys

Long time reader, first time poster!  I see your point Gronk, I see suicide as a very selfish act too, it affects so many more people than just that one person.  

I do think though, that depression is such an unknown and personal illness that these people can't be seen to be just wallowing in their own selfishness.  There is so much more to it that no one understands.

I guess I think there is a difference between someone who suicides just cos it's all to hard and someone who is clinically depressed.  What a topic, I'm off to read something a little lighter  :)

Mouse.

#12 RunDave

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:22 PM

I've heard of beyond blue. Wouldn't it be a great idea to have a series of races around Australia to promote depression awareness and the positive effects of running.

PS. This is a great thread. Not many people seem to want to talk about depression normally. The more discussion the better. And if people have outdated or incorrect views, then this is the ideal forum for those views to be better informed and/or corrected.

#13 Clouseau

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:29 PM

AG & Gronk,

Your messages are really quite quite terrible. Clearly neither of you has been directly affected by mental health issues.

To quote you ag,

"It strikes me as ironic that some people have money, fame and even work in an industry that they love and still it’s not enough. "

Where is the irony in that? There is sadness and maybe an inability on your part to understand, but I can't see any irony.

You then say,

"Well I got to thinking that running is one of few sports/pastimes where you feel good about yourself"

Have you ever played tennis? Ever sailed a dinghy? Abseiled? Climbed a mountain? Gone fishing? Lifted weights? You don't think that other people in their chosen sports or pastimes feel as good as you do when you run? You call this thinking?

I lost an uncle to suicide. He suffered from depression for many years. It was so sad because he was one of the most intelligent, interesting and loving people I have known. He had two children (he has never seen his grandchildren) and a wonderful wife.

It amazes me that intelligent, well-read people can still have this sort of attitude in 2005. The 'illness' of depression is well proven and based upon significant scientific fact. To suggest people are just wallowing in their own self-pity is terrible.

The fact that Rene Rivkin killed himself even whilst having everything that he did, should be proof enough of how devastating depression can be. The same for Paul Hester. They had families, money, successful careers. And still they killed themselves.

There is no proof that running or any other form of vigorous exercise can help people with depression and to suggest that these people are selfish for committing suicide is really quite appalling. Athletes are as likely to suffer from depression as any other part of the community and frequently do. Are you telling me that you have never read about young people who have promising sporting careers that suicide?

You’d rather believe Dame Edna over the medical community?

Anyway, sorry if I have upset anyone with my outburst but I find the two of you offensive at best.

#14 Gronk

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:36 PM

It was never my intention to offend. My sincere apologies to all.

Gronk

#15 BOOF

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:37 PM

Remember seeing a story on Darren Clarke(I think)on good morning australia once, he was a great 400M comm games/Olympic etc runner....even had a run with balmain tigers for a couple of sessions, anyhow depression effected him pretty bad,espically once he stopped competiting.

I think the moral to story was you're just gotta keep the mind & body active, and the higher you go the bigger the fall(Rivkin/Hester/Micheal Hutchins) etc all led massive lives at some stage, otherwise you start the downward spiral.

regards
Boof

#16 FitzCameron

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 04:53 PM

I was at a luncheon seminar a few years and Jeff Kennett was a guest speaker as part of his Beyond Blue role (he had left politics).  After a brief introduction, he asked the venue (about 400 people) a simple question:
"What was the best thing you did today?"

Hmmmm, you could see everyone stop and think - I myself was thinking about the day I had had upt to then, traffic and work issues, how I handled a particular situation, etc.  I could see everyone doing the same.  
Then he asked, "Would you like to know what the best thing I did today was?"  the room silenced: here was an opportunity to hear from JK what he thought the best thing that had happened to him was: the answer?


"I woke up" he simply replied.  This appreciation of the joy of life, made me appreciate why such a simple act that we all take for granted, can be a millstone for others  in our community.  
Beyond Blue has my admiration for the work they carry out.

FC

#17 vat

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:02 PM

quote:


Originally posted by Gronk:
It was never my intention to offend. My sincere apologies to all.

Gronk

Appreciate that, Gronk - bit of a soap box issue for me, I'm afraid.

#18 Chunderbolt

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:05 PM

OK, time to out myself. This is difficult, and probably irresponsible.

I have been diagnosed with depression in the last couple of months.

To get to the point of the thread, the doctor who is treating me insists that it is vital that I continue my program. He says that vigourous exercise for about an hour five times a week is one of the most effective anti-depressants available, so although running may not prevent depression, there is evidence to suggest it diminishes the severity.

And from my perspective, I can tell you that rest days are definitely my worst days for depressive symptoms. I've discovered a common theme in my blog - shitty days that turn good after a decent hit of endorphins.

Tim, as an ITB sufferer I think your analogy is spot on.

#19 Amjan

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:11 PM

Good on you Benny. It sounds like you have a good doctor, which makes a big difference.

I like the signature of someone I can't recall (sorry) - "this too shall pass"

#20 youngrunner

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:16 PM

Great post people, real positive, productive discussion.  

I sometimes sit down as a young employee and ask myself where are the growth industries going to be in the future and where should i aim myself to maximise career opportunities?  Its sad that the answer seems to be the areas of mental health and depression as this problem continues to grow in Australia.  

For years it has been largely ignored by all governments as they see no vote value it in.  By the time that all voters suddenly have some one that they know with mental illness/depression or knew that has committed suicide and it becomes a valid election issues it may be too late.

That said the rush and natural high that i get from exercising - and running particularly - personally leaves me feeling great.  With the growth also in obesity and lowering levels of physical exercise you have to wonder if there is a link?  Both obesity and mental health constantly get mentioned as major health problems but no one has researched the link between the two...Food for thought

#21 queen_bee

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:17 PM

This is a great thread. As others have said - the more we talk about depression (and other mental illnesses) as an illness, like ITB etc, it begins to create a supportive and open society for sufferers and those around them.

Some of these posts have prompted me to share my family story. My maternal grandmother committed suicide when my mum was 6. My mum grew up thinking her mum had drowned in an accident and was only told the truth when she was 35 and a mother herself. It's now thought that my grandmother was bi-polar (manic/depressive). My mum floundered at different stages of her life while 'soldiering on' with a successful academic career and as a single mother. Recently, once all her 'projects' were taken care of - kids, career etc -, she seemed to simply not be able to cope. She suffers from clinical depression and now takes medication to alleviate the symptoms. She is a staunch advocate of alternative lifestyle and had real difficulty coming to terms with taking conventional medication.

My mum has practised yoga and meditation for 20 years. She is fit, active and an external picture of health and wellbeing. While she is on medication and it takes many months to level out, she still experiences fluctuations in her depression and anxiety. She tries to swim or walk every day as this can make the difference between and day that she copes and a day that she doesn't.

There is a lot of research supporting the use of exercise and diet for mental illnesses. It's great to see that the medical and holistic world are starting to converge on solutions for sufferers although I wouldn't propose that my grandmother would have made any different decision about taking her life had she lived in this era, or that it is easy for someone bedridden with clinical depression to get out for a run. However, depression is certainly a serious issue that we as a community can act with support and compassion.

#22 FakePlasticTrees

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:18 PM

Barry Humphries (Dame Edna) said a lot of things over the years, it was his job to try and be funny. Sadly he should have known better. He has suffered from acoholism and depression in his life. And a quote from his son Oscar Humphries articulates some of what depression is like.

"There is a difference between being depressed and being unhappy. When you are unhappy, even when you grieve, you can seek comfort from a friend and this compassion can lift you. Someone who is depressed might be surrounded by loved ones and still feel alone and unable to see a way out."

"A depressive lives in a world without love - at times, I have found it to be an empty and desolate place."

Wonder if he is aware of his father's alleged quote.

As somebody who has been there for somebody through depression, I've gone from the "get over it" type of person to somebody who at least tries to understand it. I like the aims of the Beyond Blue foundation and hope they do raise awareness of the illness.

Oscar's quote also points to why suicide isn't seen as selfishness by the suicidee. There isn't a connection between themselves and others, it is an insular place that can only be negotiated by the person. To an extent it is a detachment from the real world. Professional help/conseulling is a great assistance and should be sought.

BTW Michael Hutchins didn't commit suicide.

#23 tim

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:34 PM

My understanding of depression is it is like you have sunk to the bottom of a dark well.  You can still see and hear what is going on but it is miles away and muffled.  You are stuck in the well and there does not appear to be any way out so you stay there alone and isolated in the darkness.

#24 Clouseau

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:44 PM

Gronk & ag,

Sorry. Did not mean to attack you personally. I flew off the handle a bit there.

peace

#25 Colac

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 05:55 PM

Cliff Young and his wife Mary broke up after 7 years marriage, not because of the 38 year difference in their ages, but because Mary was struck down with bi-polar which took another 11 years to get under control.

Mary could run three marathons in one day on the track, then overnight she couldn't do anything as the illness took over.

Thankfully, Mary now has a daughter and is a great mother, but it was touch and go for quite awhile with an inadequate income, few possessions, and almost no one prepared to help her cope with the scary things that were happening to her.

It is true that depression causes a person to focus on themselves, but what else can they do if the world is caving in around them, and they are fighting for their very survival.

Depression can seperate your from the people most important in your life - and it can be a challenge for them to try and understand what is happening to you.

Gronk, your apology is appreciated as it shows you don't have a hard-nosed "set in concrete" opinion, and can change your mind if new facts are given to you to help you reassess your stand.  It takes a real man to say he's sorry.

#26 courtlylove

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:01 PM

The analogy with ITB problems is very good. I am prone to depression. It first occurred as post-natal depression after the birth of my first son in 1982. Since then there have been several other episodes. I have been suicidal several times. When I am in that place there is no other choice. Selfishness does not come into is, the feeling is just overwhelming.

While I firmly believe that there is a chemical or physiological element to depression, in some cases particular circumstances can have a big influence. This has been so for me. I also believe it is hereditary - I believe my mother has had undiagnosed clinical depression for many years.

That is the background. To get back to the point of the thread - when I exercise (whatever form it takes) I feel better. When I don't or can't (as recently with a knee injury) I begin to start feeling very bad again and struggling to stop myself sliding down into the abyss again. My experience supports the medical studies that indicate that strenuous exercise several times per week can help to alleviate the symptoms of depression.

#27 BOOF

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:12 PM

quote:


BTW Michael Hutchins didn't commit suicide.
  

gnscon

azaria got took by dingo's too....but lets not go there as this threads not one thats meant to be de-railed....

regards
boof

#28 TRAVY

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:39 PM

Gronk you have  a lot to learn   :)

#29 Gronk

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:49 PM

quote:


Originally posted by TRAVY:
Gronk you have  a lot to learn    :)  

Thanks Travy. I will follow it up.

To the person who posted anonymous abuse on my blog.  Its been deleted. Thanks for your honesty I guess.  :unsure:  

Gronk

#30 ag

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:52 PM

Apologies if I upset anyone. What I was exploring was the mental benefits of running. I regret using the word 'ironic' now but the point I was trying to get across was Money and Fame does not equal happiness. Sorry it was a point badly made.

Clouseau, I'am not a runner, at least I do not consider myself a real runner. I might do 10-15kms a weeks when I'am running alot. I played soccer to a high level in Sydney and overseas. I have done Martial Arts seriously as well. Running is the activity that makes me feel the best at completion. Simple as that. Fishing? Are you serious. Playing football, working out with weights, playing Tennis and even cutting my front lawn makes me feel good. Running me feel good about myself.

You say there is no evidence that exercise helps fighting depression? Just search the internet and see all the evidence. Studies show exercise does help with depression and Gp's are out there prescribing exercise as a treatment of mild to moderate depression.

I guess I'am not to great putting my thoughts down in writting. I hope I have done a better job second time around.

thanks
Alex

nb. Good book to read. "The Complete Book of Running" By James F. Fixx. Chapter 2 "What Happens to your mind - Exploring the Brain-Body Phenomenon".

#31 Amjan

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 06:55 PM

Gronk - obviously I disagreed with you, and quite strongly! However you have taken all the opposing posts on board with good grace, so thank you

#32 TRAVY

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 07:01 PM

here here Amjan, Well said

#33 KIT

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 07:34 PM

Hi all,
As a social worker on an aged care psychiatry community team this is an area I deal with each day.  It is great to see the issue being so openly discussed and debated.  Unfotunately depression and mental illness is a huge problem in the community and it is NOT talked about openly with out stigma.  1 in 3 will at some point experience a form of mental illness... guys that is a lot of us!!  Some of the comments highlight that there is a real lack of information and education in the community.  depression and other major mental illness are not just about people being weak, selfish or unable to cope.  It is often based in chemical and physiological causes.  Suicide is NOT a selfish act, rather a selfless act.  When people have reached this point it is not about being difficult or causing problems for people around them.  A lot of my clients genuinely feel that their families, friends and the community will be better off without them.
I hope that we all continue to talk openly with people about mental illness and see it as any medical problem or injury, rather than a weakness.
None of us are immune... and it is not always that obvious.

Kit

#34 ag

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 07:39 PM

Clouseau,

I'am sorry if I came across agro to your post. My original post was badly worded and I guess a little nieve. I have been thinking about the issue of late because someone close to me has been acting a fair bit out of character and I'am a little confused about whats going on.

#35 Owly

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:00 PM

I read this thread with great interest for several reasons:
1) in my "day job" I run programs for family members of people with mental illness
2) I have grown up with a mother with schizoaffective disorder (briefly, this means she has mood and though distortions similar to having schizophrenia and bi-polar disorder)
3) I have been depressed at various points in my life, although thankfully I have never had thoughts of suicide.
4) all of my close friends are either family members of someone with mental health problems or have mental health problems themself.  Why do I tell you this?  Because mental illness is not rare!  

I don't have much to add to this conversation as it's all been said already.  What I will say is THANK YOU to those who have self disclosed either about having a diagnosis of a mh problem or about having a friend or family member with a mh problem.  One of the best ways we can advocate and break down stigma is to tell our story.  I call it ripple advocacy; it's like throwing a stone in a pond.

Yes, exercise affects your mood positively however one must bear in mind that the symptoms of depression (decreased energy, tiredness & fatigue,
sense of worthlessness or guilt, loss of interest or pleasure in nearly all activities and inability to concentrate) would all make it hard, if not impossible to get out and run.  BennyR this goes to show your strength of character - that you are out running and socialising despite the depression.

The majority of thoughts expressed on this thread confirm what I already had come to realise...CR's are pretty awesome people!

BTW I really like the idea of a run to raise awareness of MH issues and break down stigma!  I have been thinking for years that there is no "red nose day" for mental health - mental illness is not 'cute' or 'sexy'.  An event whereby we are running for mental health is a great idea.  

As the  Mental Illness Fellowship of Victoria state "One in five will be effected, five in five can help".  Actually, they are inaccurate as mental illness directly or indirectly affects all of us.    

Vat man you don't mind sharing the soapbox do you?     :D

#36 Clouseau

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:03 PM

Alex,

Apologies. You are right in what you say yes. From what I understand there are clear links that running as well as other forms of exercising can helps to alleviate the symptoms of depression, unfortunately for the sufferer this is generally only a short term fix and not a cure for the illness (as I understand it).

I guess I took exception because I felt that your original post was a bit flippant and very generalistic in nature.

So in a nutshell, firstly yes I do think you were oversimplifying things, and secondly, yes I could name a number of athletes that suffered from depression, although they are generally thinner on the ground than in other professions because depression itself can cause symptoms that would make it very difficult to actually become an accomplished athlete. What I mean by this is that a person with depression will struggle to have to have the ongoing and continual togetherness, stability and mental attitude required to become a world-class athlete but it does not mean that by being a runner you are less likely to become depressed which is what I believe you were trying to say. I hope that the point I am trying to make is coming across ok?

Anyway, like I said earlier. I took exception and posted without thinking and for that I apologise. I should have explained myslef a little better

C

#37 Fish

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:05 PM

Depression/mental illness indeed has had an impact on Elite runners as you would expect given the statistics.  Steve Millichamp took his own life some years back.  Steve was right up there back then and I think just missed the qualifying for the Commonwealth Games?

#38 vat

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 08:55 PM

Taking a slightly different tangent on this issue, I seem to recall hearing some time ago that exercise was seen as a fairly effective anti-depressant, well, as, if not more effective than anti-depressant medication.

This, if memory serves, was due to the endorphins produced by exercise being able to penetrate the brain's blood barrier without any problems, whilst this was a problem for most drugs.

Had anyone else heard this?  It was a couple of years ago.

#39 Chundachick

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Posted 03 May 2005 - 11:25 PM

Not the most auspicious start, but this has become a great thread. It is amazing to see so many people willing to share stories of watching a friend or family member battle this illness. A special mention to Benny R - that took guts. It has inspired me to share my experience also. I have suffered from clinical depression for many years and have been in hospital on several occasions due to harmful episodes that have almost resulted in "expiration". Although I couldn't say that was my intent, it certainly wouldn't have been an unwelcome result at times. I have been back running for a year and while the physical aspect does help, the friendships that I have developed with other runners are the things that pull me out of "the hole" when I start to slip back in. With so many positive people in my group (Clairie, Tesso et al) you can't help but soak up some of their energy. People who know me now probably wouldn't believe that a girl who almost ran herself to a stress fracture because she loved to be out on the road so much, had days when she couldn't even get out of bed.

I tried medication but I couldn't live on it. Apart from the side effects, everything felt "fuzzy" like you knew what you were feeling wasn't real and the bad stuff was just hiding under the surface. Ended up being referred to a chiropractor by a friend and underwent Neuro Emotional Technique (NET) therapy. I was sceptical and to this day don't know how it works but it did for me. I'd recommend anyone struggling with depression to give it a go. I'm not saying that I'm "cured" because I don't think you ever are. But I have found a way to manage it for now that seems to be working. There are days though when I get that familiar feeling: being in a room full of people and feeling completely alone. That's the best way to describe it.

RunDave: what a great idea regarding fun runs for mental health (eg beyond blue). I'll definitely be looking into it.

#40 OZ YID

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 12:42 PM

If Darren Clarke was depressed playing for the Tigers circa 1991 then he should have tried watching a team go from making grand finals and full of world class players coached by the game's most innovative coach in Ryan to a side full of cast offs and rejects coached by a union joke in Alan Jones that won the spoon and eventually folded in its own right.

I was pondering this very thought this morning on Lilyfield Rd as i gazed at the Lighttower Pylons behing the Latchem at the Temple and the great players i grew up watching win most weeks .. Pearce, Elias, Sirro, Roach, Jack, Whiz, Brasher, Brooksy, Meggsy, Corowa

My mind then wandered to 2005 and Daniel Fitzhenry being picked every week. If he is picked again tonight we will have one more person diagnosed as clinically depressed and unable to figure out how a merkin like Fitzhenry can play first grade league. My depression could well lead to something very drastic on Sunday arvo at brookvale

#41 mj

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 01:47 AM

Thanks Chundachick.  Really.  Not many people are brave enough to talk about it even though most of us have been there.

I want to add a comment about running helping during grief.  The last thing you want to do but the best thing for you when you are depressed is to go for a run or do weights.

Running is the most effective thing that helped me deal with my boyfriends death.  It helps you get rid of anger and it can get you tired enough to be able to sleep and hungry enough to eat.

Running helps you to get back to these basics which is exactly what you need to move forward out of depression.

I think runners are definitely more positive and happy than the general population.  

& all the runners I know look like this....

  :D

#42 plu

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 06:26 AM

Hi All,

Another one of those threads that I was itching to comment on during the day.  I thought some of the comments when I first read it would stir the pot but in the end everyone has dealt with the discussion well – from the posts I can see.

I suspect I too could be prone to depression and I guess that is one of the reasons why I run and generally keep busy and like being around people.

How do I know this? Because of how I feel when I cannot run like the moment.   I have to work hard at keeping a positive frame of mind, not eat too much, not withdraw from family and friends and watch the consumption of VB’s.  I recorded an example of a depression like incident in my blog and this helped me.  I find writing as well as running helps beat the “lows”.  However,  I realise that you have to do more than going for a run if you are clinically depressed or suffer from bipolar disorder.


I can only imagine the utter despair of individuals, family and friends who have to deal with bipolar disorder.  I witness at fairly close quarters a friend who has bipolar disorder for the past 34 years.  I experienced all the above arguments as the “community of support” worked towards eventually coming up with this diagnosis.   It was in the family and I have been party to the extreme highs and lows of this wonderful, outgoing, charming and very intelligent person.

I have actually printed out this thread and given  it to the Head of Pastoral Care - he normally would never read anything sporty.  I am sure he and the people he deals with will benefit from this openness.

Cheers

Plu

#43 Sparkie

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Posted 05 May 2005 - 12:32 AM

Just as long as we don't let Rene's medical condition become an excuse for his ethical decisions...

#44 Owly

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 02:08 PM

quote:


Originally posted by Sparkie:
Just as long as we don't let Rene's medical condition become an excuse for his ethical decisions...

This is a really tricky area Sparkie.  I understand your point.  He was found guilty and punished for it.  

Having lived with a parent who has manic episodes and depressed episodes I can tell you that decisions made by her at these times are/were illogical, irrational, hurtful and totally out of character.  Most often, when mum is well she has no recollection of her behaviour while she was unwell.  This is what makes it so difficult for families and also legally.  Can you hold someone responsible for something they did when they were out of touch with reality?

I'm not saying that this was definately the case with Rene, as I'm not privy to that information. There's plenty more I could say on this subject but I think it would be hijacking the discussion somewhat and probably better in another forum.  For anyone interested in discussing this further I'm always happy to debate over a couple of drinks, via email or in chat  :P  

By the way, Mum would say the ITB metaphor is a good one.  She says "I'm not ashamed or stigmatised by mental illness.  It's just like having a heart condition, except I've got a brain condition."

#45 Gem

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 02:41 PM

Telling someone who is suffering from depression to "get over it and be happy" is like telling someone in a wheelchair to "get up and walk".

#46 KIT

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Posted 04 May 2005 - 05:50 PM

Gem... what a great way to put it!!!  I think a lot of people assume that a depressed person has just not pulled their socks up and gotton on with things.  My mum has also been living with chronic depression for about 40 years and when she is unwell just getting out of bed is a victory.  A lot of people see some one with depression as weak... but my mum is the strongest person I know.  To battle daily with thoughts of wanting to be dead, going to bed each night hoping you do not wake up and some mornings crying with the disappointment of another day is to me amazing.  The fact that she does muster the strength from somewhere to get up, eat breakfast and face another day is awesome and my sister and I are grateful for this...Life would be very empty with out her.  
So to all out there who have depression or any major mental illnes thankyou for having the inner strength to keep going each day.... you make life a lot richer.  This is often hard to see through the fog.
What a great thread!
Kit

#47 pupiluv

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 06:50 AM

Wow,

It seems that this is a really emotional subject for a lot of people, and I'm not just saying that cos I'm sitting here at midnight with red eyes and stuffy nose. I'm actually not a runner, nor a CR reader, so I guess u can tell this is a topic of interest for me to register and post a msg.

U might have guessed that I have experienced depression, and my husband has been a wonderful supporter; which is how I have found myself as a CR nubie. And the first thing I have to say is that I admire how brave some of u are to really put your thoughts out there without self editing for political correctness, and how upset I was when I read some of the replies. Should we be so harsh with inexperienced people and risk losing their ear, due to what could simply be a clumsy comment?

I find that there are so many people who know so much and are really passionate about their stance, that for an inexperienced person it must be completely bewildering. By inexperienced I mean someone who hasn't experienced either first or secondhand; and I don't say this to be condescending, but because 18 months ago I thought I was part of that group. What I didn't realise was that the stress and tiredness and anxiety wasn't just cos I was overworked and having odd health probs, neither did I realise that I actually had LOTS of people around me who were experiencing it or had done in the past.

I know that if I had not experienced this, I may never have discovered that some of the people closest to me have also travelled that treacherous road. Strangely enough, I'm glad I have in some respects, cos it has made me feel stronger (sometimes) and better sooner than later in my case. The most amazing thing is that there are lots of people out there who are experiencing depression, and will never know it due to lack of education in the wider community that an active person with a smiling face can still be quite depressed. I'm so glad that this thread was begun, and hope that it has answered some questions, but also fear that it may have scared off questions from people. So please try and be understanding to both sides of the fence, for the sake of education, cos not all people will be as open to hostile replies as Gronk et al.

Thanks,
PL.

#48 plu

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 06:58 AM

PL,

Welcome to Cool Running.

What a very thoughtful and compassionate first post. Yep Gronk handled it well.

Cheers  Plu

#49 7201

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 07:29 AM

Very interesting to read thoughts and experiences. I have nothing but sympathy and compassion for people who suffer from a clinical mental illness.

But........

Suicide in many instances is the manifestation of pure selfishness. You leave all of your problems and whack on a considerable load of grief to familty and friends. In the case of Rene Rivkin, I didn't know the guy, so I caveat my judgment with this fact. From the outside looking in, a person like this, who from what we know of his excesses and contempt of the civil justice system, was a selfish person, and in my mind confirmed this by his final act.

As a result, his family now have to spend much of their life picking over what remains, which is a memory of a father/wife/friend who was too selfish to resist the temptation of ending it all.

Another thing, any attempt at suicide that is unsuccessful is generally seen as a cry for help, which I think should be heard. Rivkin said on the Denton programme that he would do himself in. This perhaps should have been taken possibly for what it is; that is a cry for help.

We will never know.

#50 FIT PT

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Posted 06 May 2005 - 03:51 PM

I agree that depression is a very complicated issue. As a personal trainer, I have had several clients to have been diagnosed with it and have turned to exercise as an avenue to making them feel good about themselves.

My issue is this, firstly, I think doctors are too quick to point at depression as the problem, (I also think they are doing the same thing with Siliacs disease and putting people on gluten free diets straight away, could it  be they're diet isn't balanced ie: too much carbs/bread? But that's a seperate issue.)

My second issue is the manner in which the  depression is dealt with. They are put on drugs that would effect a horse,  you put on excessive weight which only makes they're  self image worse and  the disease is never cured, it is just handled.

Surely a better treatment would be some form of councelling?

I think doctors (sorry to generalise, I know there are good ones ) need to stop taking the easy option by diagnosing the 'fad' disease and be a bit more responsible, after all, it is what they say that we take for gospel.