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#1 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 04:13 PM

I trained for distance for 12 months or more pacing myself in both training and trying to in marathons. For the last few months I have done a lot more speed work with 13.5 slowest and 16+ at the top end. Consistently hitting 20min 5km now but not sure if this is the best way to train to get the 4:17 or better pace needed for 42km and my goal.

Has anyone tried this before. My goal is a pb at Wang next weekend and then try to get down to my sub 3 dream in Melbourne. 6 months to train for Melbourne so your thought and experiences would be appreciated.

Edited by NavyDiverJB, 16 August 2016 - 03:01 PM.


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#2 sportsphysio

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 05:21 PM

View PostNavyDiverJB, on 19 February 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

For the last few months I have done a lot more speed work with 13.5 slowest and 16+ at the top end. Consistently hitting 20min 5km now but not sure if this is the best way to train to get the 4:26 or better pace needed for 42km and my goal.

Great Q NavyDiverJB. Have a read of http://www.runnerswo...intensity-ratio regarding pacing intensity and the ratio of hard vs easy training.

#3 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 19 February 2016 - 05:51 PM

Thanks sportsphysio. "Practicing such restraint can be surprisingly difficult at first. But if you take a leap of faith and follow through with your plan to slow down, your intensity discipline will be well-rewarded." Restraint is very difficult.

It is a great guide. I am having conversations at the lower end of my training speed now which seems to be my higher end of the low intensity now and feeling like I am still at a pace I found tricky after 2 hours 12 months ago, I really appreciate you help, Restraint is very difficult but looks the goods.

#4 speedmeup

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 08:13 PM

Got to get those Ks in the legs. I found trails helped a lot to slow me down and enjoy the run a bit more - makes the minutes pass easily.

#5 mutk

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 05:54 PM

View Postsportsphysio, on 19 February 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

View PostNavyDiverJB, on 19 February 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

For the last few months I have done a lot more speed work with 13.5 slowest and 16+ at the top end. Consistently hitting 20min 5km now but not sure if this is the best way to train to get the 4:26 or better pace needed for 42km and my goal.

Great Q NavyDiverJB. Have a read of http://www.runnerswo...intensity-ratio regarding pacing intensity and the ratio of hard vs easy training.


This is really good :)

I was wondering about the fact that they were talking about elite runners and how they do their 80% at low intensity and how their low intensity is likely to be  faster than an average runners 'fast'. I am glad they added the part "the low-intensity zone is much broader for elite runners, hence making is easier to stay below the moderate threshold" .

BTW I intend to become Mr 80/20  now :)

#6 sportsphysio

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 06:27 PM

View Postmutk, on 23 February 2016 - 05:54 PM, said:

I was wondering about the fact that they were talking about elite runners and how they do their 80% at low intensity and how their low intensity is likely to be  faster than an average runners 'fast'. I am glad they added the part "the low-intensity zone is much broader for elite runners, hence making is easier to stay below the moderate threshold" .

True that most elite's "low intensity" could outrun our "high intensity/slow driving" however Scott Westcott tells an interesting story of observing African marathoners knocking out >6.30min/km ridiculously easy runs. And it makes sense that the easier your "easy" runs, the harder your hard running. Often in trying to make the most out of every run, we don't get the max out of any run. By adding the easy stuff, you increase the variability and stimulus of the intensity sessions. But trying to convince clients to slow down or even, god forbid, take rest days is like trying to offer custard tarts to Crossfitting Paleoites.

#7 McNick

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 07:40 PM

I like the philosophy, and I think something like an 80/20 rule is far more palatable to me than trying, for example, a Maffetone approach, where at least you can mix in some faster work, and the less intensive runs preserves energy for a better go at the high intensity workouts.
I probably get close to this with my workouts , with 2-3 easy runs and 3 workouts. The challenge is to keep the easy runs easy, and I do use heart rate to maintain a comfortable pace.

#8 Steve01

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Posted 23 February 2016 - 10:09 PM

Some great advice here. I often have tried to beat yesterday's 10km time or my Sunday's 20km time whenever I run and have been really trying to slow down and not care if I was faster yesterday or last Sunday, still have a way to go but getting there and trying not to look at watch while running. Told my physio this and he said, " I make a good living out of people like you".

#9 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 04:37 PM

Cheers all. I put a very restrained 80km this week or will be after tonight hour and one rest day Monday and and 2 days of 5*1km fast stuff with 1 minute jogging recovery. Have another rest tomorrow and a nice chilled 3.30 42km planned for Sunday in Wang. I will stick to the 80/20 plan until Melbourne and see the results. I fully agree re each to their own on low intensity. What some of my mates do as low is my race pace and other friends whose low is more a fast walking pace for me.
Even restrained myself not to over take other runners- made it sociable with me chatting to a few more people some of whom might I add have been moving at a pace they did not find low intensity and challenging to chat back :)  

#10 HeadlampRunner

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 03:11 PM

NavyDiverJZB - I have been thinking the same thing regarding my training. I've been running for a while and not really thought about the ratio of low intensity and high intensity.  Some quick maths revealed that I am closer to 60/40 than 80/20.  This year I've decided I am going to do all the things that I need to run a decent time at the Gold Coast Marathon.  So moving to 80/20 training, doing strength training, form drills, hard hills and high mileage are all on the menu.
What I am finding hard about getting in the low intensity training is fitting in the high intensity training too.  I have been doing three quality sessions a week - intervals (normally 7 - 10 x 800m), tempo (usually 15 or so kms) and long run with a fast finish (usually the last 10kms).  There's no way I can fit in enough low intensity running to make the ratio match.  So I'm looking to change to a two quality runs per week schedule - the other session will be replaced with a low intensity run each week.  I'm not sure if I have the discipline to cut back on that intensity that much.
I am also considering how many additional kms I can add to my slow days so that I can "afford" more kms on fast days.  At the moment I have a schedule with about 85 -95kms per week - I figure each additional 8kms of slow running I do is an extra 2kms of fast running.  Even if I do increase my weekly total to 100km, that means that I would be "over-running" if I did the 15km tempo session and one of my other quality sessions.  I guess that means tempo will be reduced to 10kms.
I guess all this maths is why people get a coach :Smug:

#11 sportsphysio

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 03:32 PM

View PostHeadlampRunner, on 27 February 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

I guess all this maths is why people get a coach :Smug:

Very true HLR Posted Image

Just to clarify, the 80/20 guideline applies more to the 6-7 runs/week crowd. With less runs/week, the ratio would amount to 1 x 100m sprint, which may not do the job. So if you're not running as much, you can get away with a slightly skewed ratio. I'm guessing that you might have it covered with 90km/wk though.

View PostHeadlampRunner, on 27 February 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

So moving to 80/20 training, doing strength training, form drills, hard hills and high mileage are all on the menu.

Great list of the most effective aspects of marathon training. I'd probably add a smidge of cross-training in there just to manage the load and reduce your injury risk.

#12 HeadlampRunner

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 05:20 PM

View Postsportsphysio, on 27 February 2016 - 03:32 PM, said:

Just to clarify, the 80/20 guideline applies more to the 6-7 runs/week crowd. With less runs/week, the ratio would amount to 1 x 100m sprint, which may not do the job. So if you're not running as much, you can get away with a slightly skewed ratio. I'm guessing that you might have it covered with 90km/wk though.

I am a 6 day a week runner SportsPhysio so I am aiming at the 80/20.  I opened up a spreadsheet and did the numbers (cheaper than a coach).  I've re-worked my training schedule leading up to Gold Coast and my "worst" weeks are around 77/23 ratio so I am pretty happy with that.

I didn't add the cross training onto my list (it's already part of my habit - I have two kids who like riding their bikes to the park and playing on the trampoline - so I manage to cross train with them).

#13 nac078

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Posted 27 February 2016 - 06:14 PM

I'm training for my first marathon after a long absence of 5 or so years. I've been back running regularly for over 12months and did 2 half marathons last year. Been building a base of 40-50km  a week for about 14weeks all slow paced with a tempo thrown in every once in a while.Currently averaging 60km a week (20km+ LSD , 15KM,15KM,7KM)

I've entered the SMH 1/2 and planing on doing the M7 full in july.My plan was to maintain the 60km average over the next few weeks leading up to the SMH. So my understanding from the 80/20 theory i should only do 1 harder effort around the 12km per week.????

If so could i do a tempo run of say 12km as part of one of my 15km . Then the following week do a 12km interval session (1km hard 1km easy) as part of my 15km run. Then all the other runs are at a easy jog ???

#14 HeadlampRunner

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 08:29 AM

I've read the 80/20 theory as being based on kms per week Nac078.  Your 12 km tempo or 12k interval session looks sound to me if you make up 60kms each week.  In the reading I've done the "easy jog" parts are in zone 2 (if you use zone heart rate training) or conversation pace if you prefer something a bit more "old school".  Some of what I have read suggests that you should do some fast work at least every couple of days, but make it a short part of your bigger "slow run".  In your case maybe a 10km tempo or interval run per week with 2kms of other short fast work in amongst slower runs.  Maybe do the second to last km of your long run at your target marathon pace (use the last km for cool down) and do a 1km burst on one of your other runs.
It's all a bit new to me (I've been one of those runners that did a quality session every second day and a recovery run on alternate days - ending up with roughly 50/50 fast/slow ratio).  So don't take me as an expert.
If you take a look online a number of the running training plans try to keep to the 80/20 mix, so they might give you a better idea on how to maintain the mix and keep the quality.

#15 Wayfarer

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Posted 28 February 2016 - 11:32 AM

80/20 is time based. I can't see how this can work for anyone running less than 100km and 7 days a week. It's a bit vague on how to measure intensity- HR or LT (threshold being about your max pace for a 1 hour run).

No consideration of the massive variation in recovery rates between each runner. There's no seasonal adjustment (During the Qld summer I'd be something like 50/50 and then with winter long runs 80/20). And of course no mention of the elephant in the room - diet.

I don't mean to rubbish this plan, it's just it seems to me like yet another in a long list of training fads sold in a book, it's appeal being that it's physically easy.

Edited by Wayfarer, 28 February 2016 - 11:43 AM.


#16 Tauros

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 09:14 AM

View PostWayfarer, on 28 February 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

80/20 is time based. I can't see how this can work for anyone running less than 100km and 7 days a week. It's a bit vague on how to measure intensity- HR or LT (threshold being about your max pace for a 1 hour run).

I think it's LT - however you want to define it either pace or HR - or both. HR would be an easy way to do it as most training software will divide your volume into your HR zones for you.

I think the 80/20 method is a pretty solid rule of thumb, but like anything, it's a guide that depends on numerous factors. Sure, you'll have weeks when you're getting close to a key race where you put in a higher amount of HI volume with some big sessions, as you've mentioned above.

It certainly does favour the more traditional approach of high mileage / high frequency training though, which generally is agreed to be the way you'll reach your full potential if you can sustain the mileage without being injured. I used to train relatively low mileage on what would have been a 60/40 or maybe even 50/50 split and although I put in some pretty solid performances I struggled with continual niggles and injuries.

Funnily enough higher mileage has put a stop to the niggles and while my HI volume is probably similar or only a little larger, it's done at much better quality and overall higher intensity than it was before and this is very much down to it being a far lower proportion of my overall training volume.

So sure, it might work on a lower mileage, but you'll probably struggle with your top end as you just don't run 'fast' often enough. Going for a higher split than 80/20 on a lower volume will reap better race times up until a point, at which you'll then need to increase your mileage to perform better. At which point you need to add more easy runs, or you'll burn yourself out.

View PostHeadlampRunner, on 27 February 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

What I am finding hard about getting in the low intensity training is fitting in the high intensity training too.  I have been doing three quality sessions a week - intervals (normally 7 - 10 x 800m), tempo (usually 15 or so kms) and long run with a fast finish (usually the last 10kms).  There's no way I can fit in enough low intensity running to make the ratio match.  So I'm looking to change to a two quality runs per week schedule - the other session will be replaced with a low intensity run each week.  I'm not sure if I have the discipline to cut back on that intensity that much.

Is your fast finish to your long run at marathon pace? If the 80% should all be under your lactate threshold intensity or thereabouts (someone by all means correct me if I am wrong) then your marathon pace should be under this? So it shouldn't be counting towards your 20% of HI volume - which just leaves your speedwork and tempo session which I assume is more in the HMP/threshold pace range?


EDIT: Ok, so the article posted about is saying 77% MHR as the ceiling - I've read ones where they are more concerned with above and below LT. Probably depends on which school of thought you're following, which of course is another variation.

Edited by Tauros, 29 February 2016 - 04:36 PM.


#17 mutk

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 10:44 AM

My heart rate MAX theoretically is about 180.  I have done 1, 2, 3km TT's at 100%  effort in the past and my heart rate has reached 185 ONCE  according to my watch. I have appart from that 3km TT ( where I did 11m flat )   never seen my HR go beyond 183  :)  I have aged 4 years since so theoretically I may have lost a few beats per min too.

77% of 180 is 138.  At my previous peak of fitness I was able to cruise at about 4:50min/km pace with HR sitting at 135-140 bpm.


I run 5 days a week currently.

Sat 5km parkrun
Sunday long
Tues  gym + 8km
Wed gym + 8km
Thur gym +  some sort of speed workout, done with heaps of recover between reps

I am way under the 100km pr week thumb rule.  Max weekly total so far is 43km :(  I am still building up.

When I do my longer runs, I tend to be at about 145bpm  now. At my last peak of fitness I could do a 1hr36 HM ( race ) with averaged heart rate 145.

My pace and level of effort in a long run now is nearly always 'comfortable, not easy not hard' .. And I don't feel like I am pushing it.


I guess if I could do 7 days a week and approach 100km per week the 80/20 rule would come in to play.  BUT given where I am now, perhaps a slightly higher effort level is appropriate.

Another thing to consider is age. A 50 year old doing 100km a week ( a rarity I assume )  will probably have to to 80/20 to survive. And would be a fairly elite sort of runner too at that age.


Given all the above perhaps the 80/20 rule is not a clear cut thing for me. Its tricky :)

Edited by mutk, 29 February 2016 - 10:46 AM.


#18 McNick

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 12:26 PM

I reckon if you Strava Stalked your 50-55 yo nemesis from parkrun you would find him doing close to 100km/week.
I am currently doing around 80km/week, increasing to close to 100 in preparation for a marathon, and I'm a preety inexperienced 55 yo.
My take on all this is to do the work at the target pace. Easy runs are easy and workouts are hard.
I find HR and breathing a good measure of easy, and doing easy runs easy gives you reserves to put the effort into the workouts.
I think the proportion is right, though, regardless of the total distance.
If you're running less than 50 km/week, only 10 of those should be hard. Intervals and hill work typically only have ~30% of the total time or distance as hard, due to warmup, cooldown and rest breaks.

#19 mutk

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 04:49 PM

View PostMcNick, on 29 February 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

I reckon if you Strava Stalked your 50-55 yo nemesis from parkrun you would find him doing close to 100km/week.
I am currently doing around 80km/week, increasing to close to 100 in preparation for a marathon, and I'm a preety inexperienced 55 yo.
My take on all this is to do the work at the target pace. Easy runs are easy and workouts are hard.
I find HR and breathing a good measure of easy, and doing easy runs easy gives you reserves to put the effort into the workouts.
I think the proportion is right, though, regardless of the total distance.
If you're running less than 50 km/week, only 10 of those should be hard. Intervals and hill work typically only have ~30% of the total time or distance as hard, due to warmup, cooldown and rest breaks.

I assume you are refering to me and my 50-55 yo memisis?  :)  The guy that is always in front, me second...Sigh

Yeh he's doing anywhere between 50-80kms a week, but mostly around 60km per week. VERY consistent mileage year in year out. I have spoken to the guy rather than stalked in Strava :)   His PB is just a few seconds under 20min.

For me I have very poor consistency, in 5 years have run 70km weekly total once, and my next biggest is 65kms a week. In that week I did my first marathon.  Most of the time I am well under 60km's a week. When I did my 5km PB in2012 I managed a peak of 60kms per week just prior, but all other weeks have been sub 60km by quite a bit.  And my PB is 20 flat.

Injuries are what leads me to have poor consistency. And its simple mileage that causes it.

I personally don't think I need to do much more than 50km a week to get back to 20min for 5km race pace. I just need to do near enough to 50km per week consistently for three months or more and not have to take extended breaks due to injury !!. Thats something I have never done .. Even during my marathon training I never did extended periods of simple 50km +  weeks.

I do admire all you people that can not only find the time, but actually run those 80+km weeks week after week. Wow its impressive. I keep wishing I could do it too. I know its what would get me the biggest gains. But again that simple mileage is what forces me to mothball my running shoes all the time. For now, I build to my lofty goal of consistent 40km+  and see what happens from there..

#20 sportsphysio

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 08:19 PM

View Postmutk, on 29 February 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

For now, I build to my lofty goal of consistent 40km+  and see what happens from there..

Smart move. Research has shown that the weekly distance with the lowest injury risk is between 40-64km.

#21 MikeLikeRun

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 02:58 PM

I do wonder how this might apply to runners such as myself that have been doing roughly 7 or 8 hours a week for several years which allows about 1.5 hrs at the 80/20 ratio.  If time wasn't an issue I might have gradually pushed this out to 15 hours a week over the last few years, allowing up to 3 hrs at the 80/20 ratio.  It would seem to make sense to slowly push out the amount of higher intensity running if I choose not to increase my total amount of running time due to choices about how to budget my time.

Having said that I've been going through a phase of very little true speed work and trying to get my slow run speed up.  I have been doing lots of runs where I push harder for most of a run, or for the last half of a run.  At a guess I've been doing something like 50-60% at an effort in the moderate zone.  I've been thinking its time to swap back to doing some true speed work and focus on quality not quantity and follow this guideline.

#22 Wayfarer

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 05:08 PM

Pretty sure this 80/20 thing will work if you're adding your first low-intensity long-run to your program but remember it's an arbitrary ratio based on an economics theory, which isn't perhaps the best foundation for a running program. It's very unlikely to work if you're removing high-intensity (unless you're over training) to get to the 80/20 ratio.

My objection to this and most running books is they market them to beginners with the promise of a secret formula to somehow run fast without the hard yards.

Edited by Wayfarer, 02 March 2016 - 05:11 PM.


#23 Tiddischer

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 01:12 AM

The problem with this 80/20 rule of thumb is that it is over-simplifying things.

For example: you run 100 k/week which means 20 km of fast running is allowed. But it makes a huge difference if you just have two 10 km tempo runs (quite manageable) or 25 x 800 m intervals (a lot but if spread to three sessions still ok) or 100 x 200 m repetitions (too much even if divided into 5 sessions).

As you wrote it is more about percentage of time than distance, this does not change the point - because the shorter stuff is much faster than the longer ones and you have to do even more of it in the same time then!

So an advice for all of you who try to stick to the 80/20 rule - adapt it!
A bit less volume if doing shorter faster stuff, a bit more volume when doing longer, less fast stuff like long intervals and threshold runs.

#24 Tauros

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 08:18 AM

^ Absolutely nailed it there Tiddischer

Edited by Tauros, 03 March 2016 - 08:18 AM.


#25 sportsphysio

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 10:48 AM

View PostTiddischer, on 03 March 2016 - 01:12 AM, said:

So an advice for all of you who try to stick to the 80/20 rule - adapt it!

Like the idea Tiddischer, go with the concept and the ideology, not the maths.

The 80/20 "rule" is much like the 10% "rule", it's not a rule at all. It reminds runners and coaches about improved session quality by not working hard all the time but it's not a calculation that I've ever made as a coach, just followed the sentiment of it.

#26 Wayfarer

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 05:00 PM

The folks over at Letsrun have a few things to say about 80/20

View PostNavyDiverJB, on 19 February 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Has anyone tried this before. My goal is a pb at Wang next weekend and then try to get down to my sub 3 dream in Melbourne. 6 months to train for Melbourne so your thought and experiences would be appreciated.
How'd you go?

#27 speedmeup

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Posted 03 March 2016 - 06:52 PM

I never made it past 90ks/week - mostly 70-80 for 8 weeks or so leading up to second marathon. Got me at 2.45 Mara pace until 35k.. then bombed and limped home in 2.57. Literally had the walk a couple hundred metres, i still say ive yet to run a full mara.

For sub 2.50 if i were to try again i would try taking it up to 100ks. But I have a hard physical job - at the end of the day my energy stores simply not enough.

#28 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 05 March 2016 - 09:53 PM

View PostWayfarer, on 03 March 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

The folks over at Letsrun have a few things to say about 80/20

View PostNavyDiverJB, on 19 February 2016 - 04:13 PM, said:

Has anyone tried this before. My goal is a pb at Wang next weekend and then try to get down to my sub 3 dream in Melbourne. 6 months to train for Melbourne so your thought and experiences would be appreciated.
How'd you go?
I ran a enjoyable slow race 3:40:50.7 it was 9 minutes faster than last years run in Wang and deliberately not trying to beat Melbourne  or Sydney 3.27ish PB for me. I picked a pacer group and stayed with the slightly slower one almost till the end of the race.

What was interesting (for me) is I was back doing 5km easily Tuesday, 10km Wednesday, Thursday and Friday including a few km of faster efforts mostly 16-20ish speeds. Ride today for 50km. Planning a light 30 tomorrow. Last year I was struggling to  recover 5 days post most marathons. I am taking it easy and still feel fresh. It is still hard not running a lot more speed but clearly taking it easy in Wang allowed a recovery time I have not had before in any race.

Still looking to really target Melbourne. I need an overall 37 seconds pace increase per km gets me to my goal. At 48yo-49 this year I might be dreaming but I will give it a shot.  What I really need is a consistent second half with no fade out. I am fast enough just not for long enough.

#29 speedmeup

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Posted 06 March 2016 - 07:45 AM

Awesome - perfect training for Melbourne. Very encouraging that you are back running again already.

It's still a long way til Melbourne so don't burn yourself out just yet, but closer to the event (6 -8 weeks out)i would recommend a fast half M.

To run close to 3 hours it is necessary to run a very comfortable sub 90 half. If you can do that it will give you confidence, if not possibility a revision of goals is necessary.

All the best!

#30 MikeLikeRun

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Posted 11 March 2016 - 12:53 PM

I've modified my running to include lots of easy running and two weekly key speed workouts.  My latest speed workout I did ran a hilly 7.3k course where my previous fastest was about 41 minutes, and did it in about 38:30.  Of course I haven't applied the same effort to running fast on this course in the past, but hopefully training faster will help me race faster sometime soon.

#31 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 06:38 PM

View Postspeedmeup, on 20 February 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Got to get those Ks in the legs. I found trails helped a lot to slow me down and enjoy the run a bit more - makes the minutes pass easily.

I have been doing the Ks slower. Cranked out 76km since Monday and will get over 100 by Sunday easily. 23 Monday, 26 Tuesday and 22 today +5 tonight. All at a two hours at about 11kph speed. I added a five km run home tonight in just sub 20 minutes so my fast run is sadly done for the week- so much for restraint :)

If I tacked on last Saturday and Sunday I have already pushed the 100+ mark but I start my week Mondays. (more on Mondays run below)  It is still very different slowing down to low intensity and the toughest bit is the other runners in front of me whom I would in the past run up to quickly. Staying restrained and at a constant pace  is very tough when my legs feel like letting loose like tonight's little fast run.

With 30 weeks till Melbourne I might burn through a few pairs of shoes before that run and for my target time with 100km+ per week now a target. I have to admit excuses and  options still seem to pop in to my head at about 1.5 hours running on many of my recent 2 hour runs. Like 'How about 5km faster' or 'a few fast one but cut down the time' Getting our-my head/motivation right at times is more than half the battle when it is of course easy to stop.

A carb deprivation run I read about was tried on Mondays run. Run Sunday night with no refuelling post run backed up with a early Monday run before breakfast. It was in an Article by Evelyn Parr in Run4yourlife mag Feb March 2016.  Her thought are interesting reading which I will try weekly to try and help my post WALL running.

Evelyn's article is "Periodised Carbohydrate intake to Improve Adaptation to Training" and is worth a read IMO. It is a way of practising post wall running without the 35km 45km running distance you might need to get to the WALL. It is a high intensity post dinner session to run down the carbs then with no refuelling a "sub maximal fasted run" the next morning. It is not  every day event and yes I felt it on almost all of the the 23km Monday run!

I was happy with the run Monday but fully admit the 'excuses and  options' multiplied during that carb deprived 2 hour run. From Training slow ( low intensity) I have now tried training low ( Carb deprived)

Loving running and enjoying the miles - I hope you enjoy yours. Bet you are

Will be shooting for a sub 90 minute 1/2 after five weeks of my new training routine Speedmeup.  Thank you for the tip

Edited by NavyDiverJB, 17 March 2016 - 06:43 PM.


#32 nac078

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 08:26 PM

so Navy diver whats going to be your weekly average over the next few months?? and what sort of mileage were you doing before wangaratta ??

#33 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 17 March 2016 - 09:04 PM

View Postnac078, on 17 March 2016 - 08:26 PM, said:

so Navy diver whats going to be your weekly average over the next few months?? and what sort of mileage were you doing before wangaratta ??

My goal will be staying at 100ish per week. Roughly 5*2 hour runs at low intensity plus 2 sub 20 minute 5km runs.

I was happy with hour per day 4 or 5 days per week with pace at 4.20- 4.40 and some much faster interval training sessions.  My times were going backwards Sub 3.30 for Sydney and Melbourne then 3 more at 3.40ish times Portland, Lilydale and Wangeratta left me searching for a new training routine nac078. Just one sub my dream will be fine by me. ( bet I am lying to my self)

https://www.youtube....h?v=tJWPwVF30yo


Gliders vs Gazelles

Posted Image




#34 geoffo

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 12:02 PM

NavyDiverJB, Lots of good advice coming in here.

Wang result is very positive, that was a terrific training run.

You've now established a good part of the training base you need.

Time is on your side to get your side to make good gains in your speed and endurance.

Suggestion. What you need to work on is being able to run at a good pace for 3 hours, not just 30 mins.

Here are a couple of things to think about:
  • Time on your feet matters in a marathon. Build up to a regular longest run of about 2:45 for a 3 hour target time.
  • Swap out one of the 5k runs for something different. One suggestion is a 60 min fartlek session using 1-5 min surges so you are doing a good work out for a longer time.
  • The hard followed by easy rule. Easy means not just slower, but also shorter.
  • Add a race of 10-21k each month or so. Give yourself several really easy recovery days after each race. If you can race trails and not roads that will be even better on your legs.


#35 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 06:02 PM

Cheers Geoffo. Run the Run For Kids yesterday- heavy traffic for 1st 2km but then ran at about 4:00 4:20 for the next 14km to average at 4:30 overall. Took a warm up run before the start with a 5km pre race run around the Tan to sort of make it a 1/2 and hit my weekly target.

I have dropped the 5km 20min runs and will be training 2 hours 4 times a week and 3 hours Sunday once all at an low intensity  pace. Will be pleased to adopt your Fartlek session for a light Friday session :) Mine last week was 10   3 1/2- 4 min surges but only about 30mins.

I will change my full in Traralgon to a 1/2 to test the progress in June and another 1/2 in August.  Might do a 1/2 on the Great Ocean road but it may be a little close to Traralgon- decision, decision

I appreciate the "The hard followed by easy rule. Easy means not just slower, but also shorter" advice but wish to continue with doubling my mileage - I found it tough to slow up but admit I am enjoying it now and finding myself still fresh after the 20-26 km runs is giving me a view the work load will help achieve my target in 29 weeks and 5 days

#36 geoffo

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 09:46 AM

NavyDiverJB, sounds like a good overall plan.

Even so, some of us would be cautious about all the 2 hour sessions because there's diminishing returns.

But positive returns nonetheless. So if you're confident, go with it!

Suggestion is to have fresh legs before the races and give yourself several easy days after. Those 2 tricks ensure the biggest fitness benefits from the races.

Keep us posted.

#37 McNick

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Posted 22 March 2016 - 08:13 PM

As a bit of a data geek, I've been trying different ways to measure by Easy/Hard split, as you need to factor in warmup and cooldown prior to any workouts, and even easy runs give a distribution of Heart Rate, even if I try to keep my HR below a certain target.
My max HR is around 190, I get to 185-190 or so at the end of a 5k, and average around 180 for 5 - 10km all out.
My long runs are typically averaging 155-160.
So, for the last 4 weeks, I have been looking at time in various HR zones (50-60%, 60-70% etc), with Z5 > 90% and Z4 > 80% MHR.
Averaging out time in the various zones, I spend ~70% of my runs at < 80% MHR, so not too bad.
With 5 runs a week, incl 3 workouts, the balance is probably too much on the harder side, and I felt that today, where I came off an easier week and absolutely nailed my progressive run this morning, on fresher legs.
Like NDJB, I find it hard to hold myself back on longer runs, and keep thinking "I can average < 5:00/km for this run if I pick it up", or "I'd like to get past that runner ahead" etc. I am also doing MP sections in my long run (typically 10-12km worth on a 30 - 36 km run), so that boosts the average HR also, but for me I think it is key to have the knowledge of doing MP sections during training.
I am conscious of injury too, as that hit me last year when pushing training, and feeling good in the lead up to Melbourne, led to a torn calf in a HM 9 weeks out, and a less than desirable effort at MM.
I'll keep an eye on my training load, and try to keep the effort lower on easier runs so I have the reserves for the workouts.
As part of working out time in HR zones, I read up on Training Stress and Recovery, and have a little calculator of Training Stress for my runs, to monitor total workload, and help me to recognise when to ease off a little.
I am hoping for a new marathon PB at GOR in May, so I see how I feel after that, and if this approach is working.
After May, I am thinking of trying a few short recovery runs (5 - 8 km) in between workouts to build the junk miles and helpfully help my endurance.
Good to see what others are doing.

Edited by McNick, 22 March 2016 - 08:14 PM.


#38 geoffo

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 10:27 AM

Hey McNick, many pearls of wisdom in your post. Nice balance in your program.

Heart rate approach is way to go, as much for your hard runs as easy ones.

#39 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 28 March 2016 - 09:50 PM

Agree Geoffo and McNick. Heart rate is crashing fast with the extra miles I have been doing. Fitbit (present from kind wife) shows resting day time  heart rate reducing by 10bpm over the last 30 days.  

Did a quiet 22km today at 5:20 over a enjoyable 2 hours. Heart rate was 135 the whole way. It hits about 170 175 in the fartlek training sessions or the 20min 5km I was doing. It average out at 146 in the Wangeratta marathon. The longer slower low intensity training is kicking a few goals I feel. I am tempted to drop one 2 hour day and put two 3 hour days in starting in July or August.

BPM avg was:
165 for my run in Geelong 21km  in January was prior to starting the longer runs low intensity runs. Would have to add that was also at 30 degrees and pace was sub 5:00
163 Lillydale November pace 5.20
168 Melb October pace 4:56
170 Sydney Sept pace  4:56

Will be testing heart rate again in Traralgon in a half in June and probably G.O.R. 1/2 with a target race pace. While both of these will be before my training change cramming 3 days into 2 :)

I hear the 'diminishing returns' thoughts,  It is always fun running , it has been a ball finding out I can run marathons. My personal goal of doing a tough ask in Melbourne is on track and win or lose I will enjoy the strategy to move my PB down by 26 minutes. Enjoying the journey and appreciate the tips, advice and thoughts thanks

#40 McNick

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:11 AM

So, just as I write about training load and injury, I get an injury!
This time it was from juggling my running week around to try to fit in a 10km race on Easter Monday.
My program had me doing a 45 min Threshold on Tuesday, so I figured a 10km on Monday would not be too different, I just needed to juggle around my long run from the Sunday to have some rest!
I thought Friday would be perfect with the holiday and everything!
I planned an easy run on Thursday, just to boost the km's for the week, but my freshness got the better of me and I thought I'd include some short 500m intervals, 500m on, 500m off.
I did 5 OK, but towards the end of the 5th I felt a bit of tightness in my hamstring, so I just jogged back and didn't try the 6th.
I forgot about it on Friday morning, but only had 12 hours rest between sessions, and went off on my re-planned long run.
Kept it steady at around 5:10/km and felt good until about 6km in when I felt my hamstring tighten, and remembered the tightness the previous night.
Smart McNick would have turned around and gone back, but competitive McNick, wanting to keep his weekly and yearly km's up, kept on going, thinking "I won't do a MP section as planned, just keep the pace easy!"
Sure enough, it go worse, to the point where I had to stop at 12km out, and couldn't run.
The walk back took 1.5 hours!
At least I stopped, and I don't think I've torn it, but it still hurts to run, and I'll finish up losing more km's with time off!
Physio says it's not too bad, and I'm doing lots of foam rolling.
Will try a jog again tomorrow and see if I can get back on track.
Now I have Hamstring, Glutes and Back warmups to add to my heel and calf warm ups! I'll probably spend as much time warming up and stretching as running.

#41 MikeLikeRun

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Posted 29 March 2016 - 10:27 AM

Last week I was pleased with how hammered my legs felt after a hill repeat session.  With limited time for hard running in my schedule I wanted to make the most of it and cranked the intensity up beyond anything I've done previously for intervals.  But one week later I'm still feeling the effects, officially upgraded my self-diagnosis to niggle and calling this a rest week.  Its very hard to pin down exactly what part of the leg is hurt, but it sure is much more unpleasant to run than normal, particularly for anything not perfectly flat.  Walk/jog session instead of short intervals this morning, mid length mid week run reduced to standard easy run tomorrow, and Thursday I'll run out the door and see how it feels.

#42 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 03:10 PM

Like a little time killer you guys might like

https://www.youtube....h?v=eQ7alNd1oRo
Noted I fail  in a big way. Its suggestion of increasing distance slowly and only 'one' LSD run per week. I am four/five days a week and well over twice the training distances from last year :)


and

Stretching https://www.youtube....h?v=OUdj2rgcpHY

I am a 60 second hold for my stretching pre and post running

#43 MikeLikeRun

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Posted 31 March 2016 - 08:17 AM

When I got out this morning my legs felt fine.  I did a short interval session, but kept the intensity down as a precaution.   I did 30 seconds fast, 30 second jog for about 10 minutes, at which point it started becoming hard, so rested a couple minutes and did another 10 minutes of short sprints (duration until it stopped feeling comfortable) with a 30 second walk.  I think working on form is very important for me, and maybe the best benefit of reduced hard running (at least for me) is not being fresh to blast yourself with the hardest possible workout, but being fresh to run with the best possible form.

#44 MikeLikeRun

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 01:10 PM

I decided to take the further step of walking any  moderate to steep hill (common in my area) while on an easy run.  My running seems to be easier and more refreshing and I've picked up a bit of pace on the downhills and flats and running close to the same time overall.  I am more able to focus on my current efforts of running with what I think is a good form.

#45 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 06:39 PM

"My running seems to be easier and more refreshing and I've picked up a bit of pace" Ditto for me MikeLikeRun except I am still trying to stop running faster most of the time. I live in Doncaster Vic. Hills are part of every days running here. At least once a week I use them. Up Doncaster road from the free way. down Elgar, back up Station st. down again to the freeway a nice run back around to the start again for a a few more reps. Over a 25km run it gives me about 1000m elevation gain. I am enjoying not slowing down on ascent now where last year I would drop of my pace a lot on the hills on the way home and didn't look forward to them. Still enjoying the 16 to 24km low to low medium intensity most days now.

#46 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 17 April 2016 - 12:22 PM

Been have some fun with this. 105km last week, 102.47, 76, 130, 71, 71, 117, 60, 83, 86, 51, 55, 64, 66, 51, 95, 66, 80 for the last several weeks. Did 22km yesterday low intensity then a 7km (plus 4 bonus ) fun run today at a nice 4.11 pace. I came 3rd and the two fast movers you beat me are track boys 1/2 my age. Not a big run but had me smiling and wanting it to be longer. I haven't been in the top three for at least 3 decades :) Not a lot of marathon runners in the mix with me. Today run was done carb starved- I did not reload after the 22km last night. I felt it every step moving fast this morning :) Breakfast was enjoyed!

Tried a 21km in sub 1:30 twice in the last two weeks. I was grumpy with myself the first time as I mucked up my pace and only worked out my error at 15km. 2nd one nailed 1:29. For me it was cool to see my pace increasing well. I know it is always my second half  where I drop off so I am hoping to get a 1/2 with a 10 minute bonus to help the hard part. If I  do that soon I might bring my plan forward to the G.C. for my crack at a PB improvement of 26 minutes rather than waiting fro Melbourne. Its nice to dream and fun trying.  Booked 2 1/2 marathons in several weeks to put it all in a race rather than just me.

Edited by NavyDiverJB, 17 April 2016 - 12:22 PM.


#47 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 26 April 2016 - 09:21 PM

Kicked a 10km out tonight ( post ANZAC March in Melbourne and too much amber stuff- carb overload?) Clocked 40 minutes 10 seconds . What I am finding most interesting is heart rate seems to be staying at 160 or lower on my faster runs now. The extra low mid intensity running distances seems to be reducing my heart rate from both melb and Syd marathons when I was often at 170ish BPM. Going to kick a 25km on Sunday at my target race pace. Restraint tonight was still tough.

The heart rate is clearly dropping on all paces now. I am 49 this years so not aiming to be a 2:10 runner :) Feeling great and training is being fun. One problem I am having is cold. Body fat might be a touch low and I am freezing often. Looking at gloves now as it gets painful on a few parts.

#48 Eddiepc

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Posted 16 June 2016 - 10:48 AM

How's the training going JB? Have you detailed a plan for Melbourne? What races are you doing before then?

#49 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 17 June 2016 - 02:36 PM

View PostEddiepc, on 16 June 2016 - 10:48 AM, said:

How's the training going JB? Have you detailed a plan for Melbourne? What races are you doing before then?

Great. Loving it. I am running about 90 to 110 km per week including 2-3 fartlek days where I run a moderate 10km then fast for 1km back off for 1 km then repeat over a 2nd 10km. I am trying to get my body moving faster at the end not just the beginning. I know many other think about 60 per week is a more sensible training distance ( sorry Colin- I have often been a sucker for punishing myself)

Did a 1/2 at Traralgon in 1:34 and have run 1:25-27 halves on a treadmill once a week for the last 6  weeks. Traralgon photographers ( very kind people  White Line Images) April and Michelle even gave each runner a fee photo. I had a big smile on mine running in light rain
I added gloves to my running kit as I am leaner now than I was as a tall skinny 15 year old- Navy medical records to prove that :)


I am happy with my progress but admit to restraint for often fails with me often tossing a fast part into my planned long moderated pace runs.  Treadmill is interesting in that I allows me to simply focus on breathing and running but note I scare or terrify a lot of people in the gym with the time I spend running :) Much prefer running out side but the treadmill does allow a time distance guarantee.

I have just read a cool book "Two hours- the quest to run the impossible marathon' Ed Caesar. Noted Kenyan superstars trained three times a day and at a pace which would kill many of us (or me at least) . Good read and insight to the good, bad and ugly side of running legends in the sub 2:15 class.

Hope your training and running is going well and putting a smile on your dial.

Edited by NavyDiverJB, 17 June 2016 - 02:39 PM.


#50 Eddiepc

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Posted 20 June 2016 - 03:38 PM

JB - Great time in Traralgon! I'm also in awe of your treadmill efforts. I managed 12km on one recently whilst away for work but was ready for therapy afterwards!

Don't know about 60k per week getting you to a marathon goal. I imagine you would need a lot of cross-training to supplement such a low base. I guess for most of us it's a cost/benefit risk/reward type thing. I've stepped up to a (purchased) Hanson plan this year (16wk 65-80mile) to push myself <3:30. So I've averaged about 112k so far hitting 130k for peak 5 weeks. Will know in 2 weeks (Goldie) how well it's worked but I suspect I have a 3:25 in me if I want to aim that high based on my races & training so far. Certainly with my mileage base, conversion should be far more reliable than the 80k/wk I was doing for Melb.

I'm with you on the gloves. I've got a few pairs but wish one were waterproof! They certainly take the edge off on those cold nights.