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Trail shoes for duck's feetOh, the saga... the drama!!


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#1 murrumfatboy

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 08:04 AM

Prepare for a rant.....

I have stupid feet....there, I said it.  They keep getting wider as you move forward from the heel, and most shoe companies start curving the outside of the shoe towards the big toe WAAAY too early, so I normally have issues finding shoes and making them last without my little toe busting out the side.  Combined with some prior injuries from a motorbike accident, my calves/Achilles aren't that flexible, so on podiatrist advice (and successfully trialled), I am now in a 12mm drop, 2E, wide toe box New Balance 880v8.  Great for road running, comfy, my feet fit, all good so far......

Trail shoes.... with those specs.... don't exist.  I have tried every brand I can get my hands (feet?) on.... most of them, a la ASICS, Brooks, etc, curve in way too quick on the outside which just squashes my little toe.  After 20+km, that would just be agony, so I need to find wider toe box.  New Balance almost had some (Kaymin Trail - 10mm drop) but literally only released online and sold out/discontinued already - there are 1 pair in Melbourne that I am sussing out, assuming they are my size, and that I can return them if they don't fit.  New Balance Head Office have told me that all trail shoes they make from now on will have a maximum of 8mm drop..... which is what I was wearing when I started having calf/Achilles issues.

I have tried La Sportiva, Saucony, Salomon (well, what is available in Canberra at least) and while they all bleat about "wide toe box", 'wide' is a very subjective term.  It might be wide to Yanks, but to us thong-wearing duck-footed Aussies, their 'wide' just doesn't cut it.

Apparently there are some new "wide" shoes on the horizon from La Sportiva that are coming, but I am not going to hold my breath.  I could just muddle on with road shoes, but some recent trail runs have highlighted their limitations, ie, feeling pointy rocks through the soles, tread filling up with mud too quickly resulting in some almost spectacular drifting action, and little protection from toe-bashing on aforementioned rocks (although this is the least of the issues, I need GRIP).

Not necessarily looking for recommendations, as I am in the wilderland here in Canberra - if Mont or the Athlete's Foot don't carry it, it may as well not exist.  I could take a trip to Sydney, but phone calls to various running specific stores there have all ended the same way - "well it's a wide-ish D width" - so no real point until someone can honestly say "damn that's some wide toe-box right there".

Will update this with....well, updates, as they come to hand for any other peeps out there with stupidly wide feet and high drop requirement trail shoes.

Here endeth the rant, for now. :)

Edited by murrumfatboy, 27 July 2018 - 11:01 AM.


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#2 Stej

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 03:25 PM

Most ducks just go barefoot.  

Perhaps slightly more usefully I have heard that Altra are good for wide feet (but I'm not sure if they come with a traditional drop or just a zero drop).  Inov-8 might be worth a browse.  

I wonder what would happen if you cut small holes / vents in the sides of a shoe.  I have heard of someone doing this for a bunion.  Might be dangerous, though, in terms of slipping etc.

#3 DrinksRunner

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 04:04 PM

I think Sauconys are wide toe box, but probably not so much in the trail shoe.
You might need to try something alternative due to your wide feet. but your probably dont wanna go anywhere near low drop shoes given achilles/calf issues.

Your best bet is to just run trail in your "normal running shoes" but probably avoid trails that are too wet and rocky.
I think you only really need serious trail shoes if you are doing trail races, or covering pretty tough terrain.

Hoka are pretty roomy in toe box, might be worth a try.

Edited by DrinksRunner, 20 July 2018 - 04:06 PM.


#4 riffraff

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Posted 20 July 2018 - 08:03 PM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 20 July 2018 - 08:04 AM, said:

Prepare for a rant.....

I have stupid feet....there, I said it.  They keep getting wider as you move forward from the heel, and most shoe companies start curving the outside of the shoe towards the big toe WAAAY too early, so I normally have issues finding shoes and making them last without my little toe busting out the side.  Combined with some prior injuries from a motorbike accident, my calves/Achilles aren't that flexible, so on podiatrist advice (and successfully trialled), I am now in a 12mm drop, 2E, wide toe box New Balance 880v4.  Great for road running, comfy, my feet fit, all good so far......

Trail shoes.... with those specs.... don't exist.  I have tried every brand I can get my hands (feet?) on.... most of them, a la ASICS, Brooks, etc, curve in way too quick on the outside which just squashes my little toe.  After 20+km, that would just be agony, so I need to find wider toe box.  New Balance almost had some (Kaymin Trail - 10mm drop) but literally only released online and sold out/discontinued already - there are 1 pair in Melbourne that I am sussing out, assuming they are my size, and that I can return them if they don't fit.  New Balance Head Office have told me that all trail shoes they make from now on will have a maximum of 8mm drop..... which is what I was wearing when I started having calf/Achilles issues.

I have tried La Sportiva, Saucony, Salomon (well, what is available in Canberra at least) and while they all bleat about "wide toe box", 'wide' is a very subjective term.  It might be wide to Yanks, but to us thong-wearing duck-footed Aussies, their 'wide' just doesn't cut it.

Apparently there are some new "wide" shoes on the horizon from La Sportiva that are coming, but I am not going to hold my breath.  I could just muddle on with road shoes, but some recent trail runs have highlighted their limitations, ie, feeling pointy rocks through the soles, tread filling up with mud too quickly resulting in some almost spectacular drifting action, and little protection from toe-bashing on aforementioned rocks (although this is the least of the issues, I need GRIP).

Not necessarily looking for recommendations, as I am in the wilderland here in Canberra - if Mont or the Athlete's Foot don't carry it, it may as well not exist.  I could take a trip to Sydney, but phone calls to various running specific stores there have all ended the same way - "well it's a wide-ish D width" - so no real point until someone can honestly say "damn that's some wide toe-box right there".

Will update this with....well, updates, as they come to hand for any other peeps out there with stupidly wide feet and high drop requirement trail shoes.

Here endeth the rant, for now. :)

Have you tried calling https://www.summitgear.com.au ?

May not have what you need but they might be able to point you in the right direction.

The Sydney based city stores are all pretty hopeless IMO.

#5 Stej

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Posted 23 July 2018 - 11:33 AM

I wonder if wider feet have a stability advantage?

#6 murrumfatboy

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

View PostStej, on 23 July 2018 - 11:33 AM, said:

I wonder if wider feet have a stability advantage?

Yep, I am pretty stable on my feet with excellent balance :)

#7 Stej

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 11:42 AM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

Do you have a waffle iron?
https://www.popularm...ke-waffle-iron/

Actually, on shoes, do you have separate squash / court shoes and if so is there a dominant recommendable brand at the moment?  I came to use my old Prince indoor court shoes and the sole has peeled entirely away from the base.  The glue has perished.  Boo.

#8 murrumfatboy

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 11:50 AM

View PostStej, on 24 July 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

Actually, on shoes, do you have separate squash / court shoes and if so is there a dominant recommendable brand at the moment?  I came to use my old Prince indoor court shoes and the sole has peeled entirely away from the base.  The glue has perished.  Boo.

Squash shoes ASICS Gel somefinkorother - my feet didn't fall asleep in these, and I only wear them on the court, so the width is less of an issue over 1hr of stepping around the court rather than pounding the pavement.  The leather gives nicely and I wear out the sole long before I wear out the upper.  Again, with all shoe advice, get the one that fits your foot.

#9 Stej

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 12:03 PM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

View PostStej, on 24 July 2018 - 11:42 AM, said:

Actually, on shoes, do you have separate squash / court shoes and if so is there a dominant recommendable brand at the moment?  I came to use my old Prince indoor court shoes and the sole has peeled entirely away from the base.  The glue has perished.  Boo.

Squash shoes ASICS Gel somefinkorother - my feet didn't fall asleep in these, and I only wear them on the court, so the width is less of an issue over 1hr of stepping around the court rather than pounding the pavement.  The leather gives nicely and I wear out the sole long before I wear out the upper.  Again, with all shoe advice, get the one that fits your foot.

Thanks.  Since my old indoor court shoes died I tried just using my running shoes and discovered what suits for running does not suit for the more intense and varied movement in squash (especially the lateral movement).  Far too much freedom in the shoe.  Apparently you need to buy new shoes for everything..... hmmmm.....

#10 riffraff

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 02:04 PM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

Nope.

Majority of models are around 8mm.

#11 murrumfatboy

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 02:39 PM

View Postriffraff, on 24 July 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

Nope.

Majority of models are around 8mm.

My apologies riffraff, poor memory - I remembered looking at Altras and lumped inov8 into the same basket.  8mm is what I had in my road shoes before switching to the 12s, so if my search proves fruitless, I may need to compromise on the drop.

On checking, they don't do 2E width...... another one bites the dust.

Edited by murrumfatboy, 24 July 2018 - 02:47 PM.


#12 Stej

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 05:15 PM

Brooks Cascadia 13 has 2E fitting.  Don't know anything much about them but some advertising for them just landed in my inbox.
https://www.brooksru...110285_026.html

#13 HeadlampRunner

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:14 PM

This might be helpful (although you can't filter):
https://www.solerevi...rmance-reviews/
It shows drop and widths.  There must be a web site out there that allows you to filter on drop...
I checked on running warehouse, but unfortunately it only shoes one pair, salomon speedcross
http://www.runningwa...er_htd=RWMRS11P


#14 Rowie

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Posted 24 July 2018 - 09:58 PM

I feel your pain, i also run in a New Balance 2E, i found these Topo's  to be super roomy in the toe box - https://www.topoathletic.com
not sure they will have the drop you are after??

Edited by Rowie, 24 July 2018 - 09:59 PM.


#15 murrumfatboy

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Posted 25 July 2018 - 07:35 AM

View PostStej, on 24 July 2018 - 05:15 PM, said:

Brooks Cascadia 13 has 2E fitting.  Don't know anything much about them but some advertising for them just landed in my inbox.
https://www.brooksru...110285_026.html

From memory, previous Brooks shoes have the outside curve cut in too sharp, which cuts off my little toes.  Might have to try a pair on again to see if that has changed at all.

Edit - Runner's Shop in Phillip just had a load of them delivered, will try some on tomorrow to see if the toe box is wide enough.

Edited by murrumfatboy, 25 July 2018 - 01:30 PM.


#16 riffraff

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 08:57 AM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

View Postriffraff, on 24 July 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

Nope.

Majority of models are around 8mm.

My apologies riffraff, poor memory - I remembered looking at Altras and lumped inov8 into the same basket.  8mm is what I had in my road shoes before switching to the 12s, so if my search proves fruitless, I may need to compromise on the drop.

On checking, they don't do 2E width...... another one bites the dust.

Where have you been checking?

https://barefootinc....-250-red-black/

#17 murrumfatboy

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Posted 26 July 2018 - 12:31 PM

View Postriffraff, on 26 July 2018 - 08:57 AM, said:

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

View Postriffraff, on 24 July 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 24 July 2018 - 07:28 AM, said:

Altra and Inov8 are all zero drop - the latest thing apparently.  Hoka's aren't wide enough, so I am resigned to DR's ethos - normal running shoes and tread carefully in the muddy/slushy bits.  

Nope.

Majority of models are around 8mm.

My apologies riffraff, poor memory - I remembered looking at Altras and lumped inov8 into the same basket.  8mm is what I had in my road shoes before switching to the 12s, so if my search proves fruitless, I may need to compromise on the drop.

On checking, they don't do 2E width...... another one bites the dust.

Where have you been checking?

https://barefootinc....-250-red-black/

Thanks riffraff...... if the Cascadia 13s are no good, I might try and hunt some of these down to try on....

#18 murrumfatboy

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 11:00 AM

Update - Cascadia 13s not wide enough in the toebox.  Pooh....

Tried NB 590v3 in a 4E, but the heel was waaaay too sloppy, didn't feel like it would stay on even with locklaces.  NB 590v4 2E fit, but the flimsy mesh on the top doesn't inspire confidence.....and only an 8mm drop.  

What I am going to do is convert a pair of my older NB1080s back to 8mm drop by removing the wedges, run alternately with them and my 12mm drop 880s to gauge any negative impact in having multiple drops available to me.  I'll build up gradually in the 8mm, and if there are no negative effects in running a 16-20km trail in them, I will re-convene with 8mm as the desired drop.... this should give me more to choose from, although still not a huge range.

Thanks for your patience, and we will return you to your scheduled programming.

Edited by murrumfatboy, 27 July 2018 - 11:00 AM.


#19 BogFrog

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 11:08 AM

Could you put heel wedges in any trail 8mm drop shoes?

#20 Stej

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 11:23 AM

View PostBogFrog, on 27 July 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Could you put heel wedges in any trail 8mm drop shoes?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm  wedges.  Rolled in olive oil, salted.   Delicious.

Another question would be - why are there problems with running with a lower drop?  Is there anything you can do in terms of exercises, stretching (or whatever) to improve this situation.

#21 murrumfatboy

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Posted 27 July 2018 - 01:09 PM

View PostBogFrog, on 27 July 2018 - 11:08 AM, said:

Could you put heel wedges in any trail 8mm drop shoes?
I'm trying to avoid wedges if I can, because it makes your heel sit up a bit more, feels unstable, and I have had experience in the past of wearing out the back of the shoe to the point where it is hard plastic, rendering 2 pairs of shoes unwearable long before the rest gave out (granted, they were walking shoes and I wore them all day every day for months before this happened).  So yes, I could, but there are risks....

View PostStej, on 27 July 2018 - 11:23 AM, said:

Another question would be - why are there problems with running with a lower drop?  Is there anything you can do in terms of exercises, stretching (or whatever) to improve this situation.

I moved from 8mm to 12mm on podiatrist advice to minimise calf/Achilles issues, which I am prone to given how tight my glutes/hammies/calves are, mainly due to a motorbike accident many moons ago and exacerbated by lots of sitting/standing still, and not enough movement in a normal day.  I stretch a lot during each day, and currently do roughly 5 exercise things each week in various intensities (running, squash, rockclimbing, etc), so short of changing careers to get me walking/moving more during each day, there is only so much I can do.  I AM about to instigate a more rigorous stretching regime to work on calves and hamstrings, in the hope that I am able to mitigate some of the risks in going to a lower drop.

Managing a major injury is almost a full time job ;)

#22 Stej

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 02:40 PM

How about these?  Perfect for ducks' feet.  In a range of colours too.....

Attached File  duckboots.jpg   100.79K   1 downloads

Edited by Stej, 30 July 2018 - 02:41 PM.


#23 besty

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Posted 30 July 2018 - 04:32 PM

One trick to give you a little extra room in the forefoot is as follows....

- Get a freezer bag and put it in your shoe, hold so toe box is pointing down.

- Fill the freezer bag with water, tie the bag.

- Put shoe in the freezer, again upright so toe box is pointing down.

Water expands on freezing so this will make a slight difference, not massive though. Do it a few times.

I have done this as I also have issues with my small toe getting crushed.

Another trick is to not thread your shoelace through the bottom eyelet.

Edited by besty, 30 July 2018 - 04:33 PM.


#24 murrumfatboy

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:53 PM

Just got a pair of Kaymin Trail shoes, 4e.  Great width in the toe box, probably a little too much to be brutally honest, but the remainder of the shoe is just as wide so it is sloppy as hell.  I will be returning them this arvo after wearing them around the office for a  few hours and being unimpressed with my heel almost lifting out.  Tried without the insole, and where the laces thread at the top is really hard and dug into my shinbone.

Back to the drawing board.......

#25 murrumfatboy

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Posted 12 December 2018 - 06:41 AM

New Balance 590MT v4 about to be released - have Tony from The Athlete's Foot orjynising some for me. 4E in 8.5.  May not arrive until next year, since I am on holidays from this Friday until the first week in Jan, but I wouldn't be using them this weekend for TdR anyway.... never do an event with new stuff!!

#26 omy005

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 01:16 PM

Have you tried the Merrell brand? I've had a couple of pairs of different versions over the years, quite wide at the front.

https://www.merrella...ootwear/running

#27 murrumfatboy

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 08:12 AM

Got the 590MT in a 4E, size 9, directly from New Balance.  Comfy in the forefoot but a bit sloppy in the heel.  In a direct comparison with my 880s (with 12mm drop), they feel sloppy, but when compared to my old 1080s (8mm drop), they fit similarly, so I think we might be onto a winner.  I would prefer the heel to be a bit narrower/more snug, but beggars can't be choosers.  I will have to wait until next Monday's training to try them, as it would be a risk to have their first hitout in a 12km event.  IF these are the goods, then they should be well worn in by UTA in May......

#28 murrumfatboy

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Posted 03 April 2019 - 11:30 AM

View Postmurrumfatboy, on 15 January 2019 - 08:12 AM, said:

Got the 590MT in a 4E, size 9, directly from New Balance...  IF these are the goods, then they should be well worn in by UTA in May......

And those are the infamous "last words".  Whether through an increase in load, or the ZERO support in those shoes, or maybe a bit of both, I now have sesamoiditis and a less-than-sexy moon boot for 4 weeks.  If you are looking for shoes for wide feet with a high drop, go for these ONLY if you have strong feet and are already doing appropriate volume.

You have been warned......