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#1 yokied

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:16 AM

I'm not sure how to put together a whole training program to integrate strength and stretching into a plan. I have done plenty of reading here and other places and understand the intervals/hills, tempo, long run regime. I followed it for only few weeks prior to races last year but it felt good. I'm not sure where to fit the strength work in, because I would like to have one or two days of total rest per week.

Strength training after runs doesn't seem like a good idea. So between runs? Which runs? What's a good way to order them? How many stretching and foam roller sessions should I be doing? Where do you fit those in?

Goal: do my first HM and start doing it all a bit faster and easier. If I had to put numbers on the goals: C2S 53 mins, HM 84 mins. I think I can get there if I put it all together. Maybe not this year though, but that's OK.

Background: I'm a ball sports guy, late 30s, 10kg+ overweight. Last year I did a lot of jogging commutes circa 5kms - say 30-40km per week but not very consistently due to injuries, travel. Last year's C2S was 73 mins. I ran that conservatively, then I ran back to my wife and walked the 2nd half with my family. It was probably nearly a HM's worth of running I did that day. I then did my calf about 5 days later when it wasn't even feeling tight and after what felt like a good solid rest. I also did my calf about 10 days prior to last year's SMH HM. I felt prepared enough to finish the HM but clearly wasn't strong enough to even get to the start line.

Training is usually haphazard with insufficient strength and stretching work and no tapering. I'm seeing a dietician and so far so good - weight should be much better managed by SMH HM. At the moment, most of my runs are HR average 160, 170+ and time progress is slow-ish. Four calf injuries in the last two years, I have well and truly learned my lesson. I know when the weight is down and strength is up it's more fun and I'm going a lot faster, so the incentive is there.

Edited by yokied, 19 January 2019 - 10:18 AM.


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#2 BogFrog

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 02:51 PM

All of you runs at 160-170 he seems pretty high...  Can you jot down what your running schedule looks like and also what strength work you are thinking of doing? How long a session and how many times a week? Strength sessions after runs can be OK, depending on duration and what the next planned runis...

#3 Davinator

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 08:42 PM

Welcome yokied!
Some big goals, but I know runners who have started around the same age, more overweight, and got there.
Chip away at it.
Get the building blocks of your session right, and consistently do them.
Former 4-time world record holder Albie Thomas said each session is like adding a page to a telephone book, giving you the fitness and confidence that you have done the work.

I agree with BF, your avg HR seems high. You want to mix the intensity of your runs so that you are not burning yourself out/injuring yourself/ hitting a plateau.
Different views on HR zone training but, regardless, you want to do your hard runs hard and your easy ones easy so you can do all of your sessions.
One aspect of HR training is that if you can run at (random number here) 120bpm, but gradually improve your time at that pace, you are improving your fitness in a sustainable way and training your endurance systems.

Agree with BF, strength training possible on run days but maybe more core and upper body work and give legs would be more stretching than lifting.
Also the program, give us info on the pace as well and maybe a recent hard effort time in a race/time trial.

#4 yokied

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 09:36 PM

There is no real schedule and I don't have much experience with them.

Realistically, what happens is the running is very cyclical. I have a break for whatever reason - work, sport or some injury - then I come back. 1st week is 10-15kms (spread over 3-4 runs) then I build. For example: I picked up a sports injury 19/11, the day after I had completed a fairly long-ish tempo run for 9km. Break until 27/12, then rebuild. Last week: 43km of mostly tempo runs over 5 days - shortest 7km, longest 9.5km.

I understand that is garbage but you can see how it happens. There is the desire for progress thinking if I can just get some kms into the legs, I'll have a bit of a platform to build on. Plus I actually enjoy it - I find it quite meditative. And now here I am having done a bit of running over the last few weeks and I want to start a plan that is sustainable so I don't have to worry about injury.

Strength work I have done in the past but haven't done in at least six months: glutes (squats), calf raises, quads (leg press, wall sits etc), hamstring curls. I start with a 20kg weight vest and build up weight very slowly, around 5 sets per exercise with plenty of little breaks depending on how I feel. It never takes me to the point where I'm feeling really wrecked.

I feel like I probably need 2 strength sessions and at least two stretching/roller sessions per week but I'm not sure where to put them.

Sunday: strength
Monday: rest
Tuesday: tempo, stretch
Wednesday: rest
Thursday: intervals/hills, strength
Friday: easy, rest on taper weeks, stretch
Saturday: long

Recent flat-ish 5km hard-ish commute: 22min, losing a bit in traffic too.

Edited by yokied, 19 January 2019 - 09:41 PM.


#5 Davinator

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Posted 19 January 2019 - 10:42 PM

3 runs a week will take you longer to get to your goals but they are the right building blocks.
The strength work is all leg-related.
Need the pace info to comment on all runs at 160-170bpm and slow progress.
Is the high HR for all sessions regardless of length?
So far we have a 5k commute in 22 ie 4:24min/km.
Distance and pace of tempo? long run? intervals (and what eg 6 x 800m, 8 x 400m, 4 x 1km)

#6 BogFrog

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 09:49 AM

When you say tempo, what exactly are we talking? Very hard run? I can see why you're getting injured if that is all you are doing! Without knowing pace and sessions, here is an example of what you could do - 2-3 rest days, running 4-5 days. Easy means EASY. Can hold a conversation

Sunday: long run morning / strength evening
Monday: rest
Tuesday: intervals, stretch
Wednesday: easy morning, half strength evening
Thursday: rest
Friday: tempo, stretch
Saturday: easy, rest on taper weeks

#7 claudicles

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Posted 20 January 2019 - 11:00 AM

Fellow overweight injury prone runner here so I can speak from my experience if not any expertise. I have read not to do any speed work until you have a solid year of regular running under your belt. I certainly ran for longer than that before trying to amp it up too much. I seem to have conquered the frequent injury thing by adding strength and stretching but having it as part of my routine is important for me or too often I skip it. I also find the weight room boring so I do Pump classes and Body Balance. They may not be as intense as a formal weights work out but they also don't have the recovery time so it does not mess up my running too much. I was kind of surprised to read recently Yoga classified as strength training although I know with my legs being strong I can blitz the yoga better than I used to. After a couple of calf injuries I'd be seeing a sports physio to see if you have relatively weak areas you need to build up. I know focusing on my glutes has helped with the pattern of hamstring troubles I was getting.
I hope this helps.
Liz

#8 DrinksRunner

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:05 AM

View Postyokied, on 19 January 2019 - 10:16 AM, said:

Strength training after runs doesn't seem like a good idea? So between runs? Which runs? What's a good way to order them? How many stretching and foam roller sessions should I be doing? Where do you fit those in?

At the moment, most of my runs are HR average 160, 170+ and time progress is slow-ish.
Four calf injuries in the last two years, I have well and truly learned my lesson. I know when the weight is down and strength is up it's more fun and I'm going a lot faster, so the incentive is there.
I dont really do strength training, but my mate that does with his coach does it once a week and its usually before a speed work session? Maybe thats just for convenience though.
Foam Rolling, I do on the floor watching tv, whenever my legs are feeling tight, you can never do to much IMO, I'm lucky to do it once a week, will do more if I have tight calves, achilles, itb etc
You may want to do some stretches for calves, hammys, quads etc, if had calf issues.
All HR runs 16-170 is pretty high Imo, maybe you are running too fast, or it might be warm time of day etc. Suggest try and slow down at least 1 run a week HR around 150? and do your long run early out of the heat.

Bog frog weekly plan was good tinker it to suit you

Sunday: long run morning
Monday: rest  or foam rolling
Tuesday: Speed (200/400/800s 1/2km intervals) do some research on speed sessions you would like to do - Mona fatlek, Deeks quarters, lots out there  
Wednesday: easy running (try and keep HR lower, still jogging)
Thursday: Hills - pick a hilly loop to run, or have a go at a hill repeat session. Dont try too hard at first work into it (as hills may put stress on calves).
Friday: rest  or stretch/ core/foam roll if you can be bothered
Saturday: Park Run - fun, social meet people to do long runs with, could even work on 5km PR.

If your tired/ run down, just do a "easy run" rather than a session and consider shortening runs.
If you want to go to the gym to do strength sessions probably do these on your rest days.
Listen to your body and dont ignore niggles, get on top of them early before you get injured, and you can still probably keep running.

Probably hardest day of eating for me is after long run, as you feel like you deserve to eat like a king after running 20kms, but you probably dont need that much extra.

Edited by DrinksRunner, 21 January 2019 - 10:14 AM.


#9 dantan

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 10:14 AM

I agree that 160-170 is very high.

I very rarely get into the 160's, even on my fastest 5km runs (21:54 is my PB and I have run 3 at 22:xx).

During my 5 x 1km repeats or 10 x 500m repeats, I average around low to mid-150's.

During my long Runs (90-120 minutes), I average about 140 or under.

Try to start with consistent low mileage Running at around 6/10 perceived effort, and every week, increase the mileage slightly, and get to 3 months, and if you are feeling good, then start pushing the pace a little perhaps once per week.

With Running, it is a lot to do with consistency and allowing the body to adapt.

#10 Stej

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 11:16 AM

View Postdantan, on 21 January 2019 - 10:14 AM, said:

With Running, it is a lot to do with consistency and allowing the body to adapt.

+1

#11 BeatYesterday

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 12:25 PM

I think dantan's advice is on point, I wouldn't worry too much about mixing the sessions at this point until you can consistently run 30-40km every week

#12 yokied

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 01:21 PM

Thanks everyone. I'm accustomed to operating at high HR in my sport and it just feels right but messages received. I'll tone it down a bit, vary it around, start with BogFrog's plan and will check in hopefully when things have settled down in around a month.

#13 BogFrog

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 01:39 PM

Or as also mentioned in many posts above, just easy running for a while until you get used to it - get consistent before adding in the speed stress..

#14 SkyChariot

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Posted 21 January 2019 - 03:12 PM

Welcome yokied. Nice that you have joined us here, and I hope you find the information you are looking for to give you some guidance as you work toward your goals. I would add my 5 cents worth amongst some good info here. I am thinking, dont get too fancy before you have gotten a bit of a running routine going that feels good. You can work from there. Its walk before you can run thinking. The other thing I would add is that if you have had injury issues in the past, think not just about strength and stretching, but also how your running form is. Basics first. Doesn't matter how much you stretch and strength train if your have things you need to get right with your running form first. Its like if you take up swimming, you learn how to develop your stroke first, otherwise you will just sink. Or taking up tennis, you learn how to hit the ball right before you start playing fancy shots. Its something that never gets enough attention. We should all be able to run with decent form, because running is just natural for us, but in this day and age, we tend not to be as active as nature intended us to be, and we tend to develop bad posture from sitting too much, and we also wear shoes for fashion, which can have nasty effects on our posture. Then, when we go to run, we have arms and legs going everywhere, wasting heaps of energy, feet pounding the ground or breaking on every stride and wonder why we get injured. Improving form can often make much more difference to many things than lots of other fancy stuff will. Just take a day to go and run and completely listen to your body. Ask others how you look when you are running. If your form is good, then that's a bonus, but if there are little things you can work on, I think you will find you will feel much better for that effort. Good luck and keep us up to date on how you are going. Most of all, enjoy each day, as each day is different and the building up to your goals often gives you more than anything else.

#15 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 08:29 AM

Hi yokied.
My shorter race distance speeds or heavy HIT session have a heart rate of about 160-170 for relatively short periods of time. Most of my longer run and training sessions aim to be at a pace where my HR is consistently between 120-140. The 130ish HR might be suggested as one of the better training HRs. An interesting Vo2Max test I did once suggested 136 target HR for maximum training effect.

As I got fitter I found happily my pace has to be increased to get to the 130ish range. My HR always spikes a little when I start and settles back . I assume that happens to many of us.

Slowing down a little allows almost everyone to run further. Running further sees adaptive muscle changes and might be one of the best long term running investments. Rather than picking a pace perhaps consider picking a target heart rate.

Stretching, Core exercise and running form are worth considering. Most importantly enjoy your running.

#16 Merciless

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Posted 22 January 2019 - 12:21 PM

Running drills can help with running form. 10 minutes a few days a week - A skips, B skips, high knees, butt kicks, straight legs, strides. You can YouTube them.

#17 yokied

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Posted 30 January 2019 - 09:57 PM

Early news is good. I just knocked out a 24min 5k on a hot, humid Sydney afternoon that felt easy, particularly at the end, and the numbers back it up. Most runs are now in the 125-135 range with a couple 150-160. I did one in the mid-170s that was pure indulgence the day after I was passed by some walkers on a slow run. I thought I could handle the humiliation but obviously not. Last two weeks logged runs: 30km, 32km, this week on track for a bit more. Next week will taper.

Running to a target HR feels weird but I'm getting used to it and the watch makes it easy. I lose a fair bit of pace as a lot of these runs progress which suggests to me that strength (or power to weight at least) is a big issue. I've only done two strength sessions so far so very early days. As NavyDiverJB suggested, 130ish feels very good. The slower stuff seems more quad-heavy - I feel them at the end. Now they feel much stronger in the harder runs.

No sprints/intervals/speed work yet. As suggested, it seems sensible to shelve this until I'm lighter, stronger and more experienced. I'll have a look at drills thanks Merciless. Also, breathing.

New shoes. I have been rotating between Nike Free flyknits and inov8 f-lite 195s that I've had for ages but they are a bit contrasting and neither seem good for where I'm at now. I went to Running Science and went through it all with them. They suggested Brooks Ricochets with a reasonable drop that'll make it all a bit easier on the calves and Achilles. I'll see how they go. They said the form looks solid but I might start looking at that a bit more seriously. The Adidas Adizeros felt good too so I might pick up a pair of those too because I'd like to have at least two pairs that I feel I can rely on and rotating the shoes is meant to be a good idea.

Physically: I'm a lot more tired most nights. This seems strange considering I'm running easier at similar distances. But the vaguely disciplined diet is having the desired impact plus I have been spending a lot more time on my feet with my boy. Today, for instance, was 31.5k steps. The roller is utterly exhausting. Sleep is huge. Resting HR now 39 with Apple Watch letting me know all about it.

Thanks all for your contributions thus far. I've read the thread a few times and hopefully this can help others. I'll try to have a good couple of months now and will update on progress after my first Sri Chinmoy race-that-I'm-just-hoping-to-complete.

Edited by yokied, 30 January 2019 - 10:07 PM.


#18 NavyDiverJB

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Posted 12 February 2019 - 10:21 AM

Top effort mate. I chuckled at "passed by some walkers on a slow run" My PB in my only Sydney run to date had a fast first half where I over took a walker at 5 min pace! I chatted just a bit before moving on a bit faster. He was an Olympic walker ! He passed me before I got back to circular key. My kids keep reminding me :) No shame on my part. I loved the fact I was and do run with Olympic and every day legends like you!  

I bet you $10 your going to join the sub 20min 5k runners inside a year or two if not  sooner or already. Make sure your kids see those attempts. Mine will be faster than me in a year or two.
Like you I am enjoying the higher heart rate at times. HIT training is cool. Longer and slower has the best bang for buck on shredding weight and also just enjoying the time. Make it your plan and enjoy it. Never stress about faster people. Billions are much slower and making a lot less effort than you promise.

#19 yokied

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:38 AM

Wow that's a great story NavyDiverJB. It would have been surreal. My boy is only turning 2 in a few months so I doubt he'll remember any exploits this year (he'll still come along to a couple) but that gives me time to build for something he might remember, say next year or 2021.

Thanks for the vote of confidence but who knows where I'm going here. My real-world goal outside of race times is to be able to cruise comfortably at sub-4min pace. I just love going fast. If I ever got there, maybe my perspective would change but the 4xx pace I'm churning out at 170+ HR sure does feel fast at the moment.

While I'm here, a bit of an update: improvements across the board, with the biggest improvement in times at 125-135HR. Technique has improved so that I can deliver 170-180 cadence at these HRs much more smoothly and efficiently. Cadence is now in that range across all runs. Strength and efficiency must have improved because everything is now steady on long runs. The first 2-3kms are just faster and better but after that the pace and cadence finds a lower plateau and is much more consistent than it used to be for any target HR.

Eyes are bouncing around a lot less now and distance per stride is gradually increasing. It must be natural because it actually feels like the strides are getting shorter and finally the glutes are getting properly involved in the slow runs. I've moved into a hilly course to keep it interesting and make sure I feel the legs at the end of most serious runs. This helps remove the feeling that I need to go fast until I'm more satisfied with the strength - calf strength in particular.

Now nudging 50kms in big weeks.

#20 SkyChariot

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Posted 22 February 2019 - 12:53 PM

^^^Sounds great yoked! Glad that you are feeling the improvements from your efforts, and are enjoying yourself as well.

#21 yokied

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Posted 19 May 2019 - 10:13 PM

SMH half marathon in 119 mins, just under the planned 120 mins. I ran it conservatively and finished with so much left in the tank that I am now questioning whether I was too conservative, but reading below you'll see why I planned it this way. It is such a beautiful course and it was satisfying to knock out a good final 5kms on the hilly part of the course, cruising past a lot of the people who blasted past me earlier.

Broader update: March, April, May were bad running months where there was no real plan, drastically reduced kms, no strength gains were made (if anything, a couple of little areas started feeling a bit iffy) and weight loss plateaued. Today was my first half marathon, when it should have been my fourth - I simply couldn't attend the others I had booked earlier this year.

Still, I am at peace with it all and should be able to get back on the path to performance improvements that you guys were very helpful with in January and February. Today was so awesome - ice bath included - that I simply have to get back to doing this somewhat properly.

#22 SkyChariot

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Posted 20 May 2019 - 02:55 PM

You should be pleased with your effort! You did well to get there considering, and you will learn so much from the experience for sure! I am glad you are looking forward to continuing running. It feels good to tick over a goal, especially when there have been challenges! And it feels even better to gain fitness and be able to go out and enjoy moving in the fresh air!