31 replies to this topic

[Uncle Dave]

Hi everyone,

I was just wondering how much benefit the punters out there would esteem racing flats to have over a 10km run / marathon in comparison to training shoes.

I normally race in DS trainers. Would investing in a pair of racing flats be likely to save me much time, or just be a waste of $$$ ???

Secondly, do the racing flats provide the necessary support over a marathon?

Thanks in advance,

Uncle Dave

[Chris B.]

Uncle Dave,

Iamyet togo beyondPuffing Billy 13.2ks racing yet.
But I run with Vets on the trackonce a week and can say that compared to training shoes like Asic 2080's, 2090's or Brooks Beasts. I gain about 1-2 sec per lap using racing flats; Brooks racers.
Most of the runners down there kept telling me that and I finally got a pair. Guess that is about 2-5sec per km. They are not as supportive and Idon'tthink Iwould run a marathon in them although Iwas told by Runners World thats what the better runners buy them for.
Hope that helps a little. <_<

[Chris B.]

Ooops sorry all.
This darn keyboard is wearing out and the space bar isn't working too well. Should have viewed before posting

[DrJH]

I reckon racing flats would be worth at least 30 sec over 10k and I'm sure you wouldn't have a problem running a marathon in them.

I don't think you'll see many DS trainers in the Athens marathon!

[Eagle]

I run marathons in New Balance 330 racing flats that are said by the maker to be able to be used for marathons. I have been using the same brand shoe for over two years - in that time I have run about 17 marathons and have had no problems.

Maybe just a little of extra sorenes the next day in the calves but nothing else. I am not as fast as you Uncle Dave for the marathon but still finish most in about the 3.05 - 3.15 range.

Do they make a differnce in real time - I don't know but they are light and thats a good feeling and I suppose a lighter shoe over the marathon may make a difference.

If the concern is adequate support then I think there are racing flats for short distances - and I suspect these have less support then those designed for longer races. I do not train in them but I do run in them a few times in March when I have not run a marathon for a couple of months - just to use the muscles that may not be used with the usual training shoe.

Overall I think you may have to try them out and see if they suit you. For me they do not have a negative affect on my running - or at least as far as I can assess they do not - so I will continue to use them although they may have no real actual positive benefit but give a positive feeling.
B)

[Dave]

I'll defer to the more experienced people out there for the first part of the question.

As to part 2, based upon advice from Damian at Sydney Running Centre a little while ago I got a pair of Brooks Racer ST's for racing in. He was pretty confident that they'd also be stable enough for Canberra.

So I used them for Canberra with no apparent ill effects, can't say how much time they might have saved.

Only 2 things to be aware of, I also wear orthotics which provide a little more stability and replaced the laces with a slightly heavier lace.

I'd certainly have no issue in wearing them next marathon I have a go at.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I've never run over 10km in flats, and possibly never will. A member of my aths club has run a marathon in low 2:20's and a 30min 10km, and says after running Gold Coast in flats many years ago, he would never attempt this again. Simply put he said the pain from the constant pounding for over 2hrs left him in agony during the race and that the benefit gained by lighter shoes may have been outweighed by slowing due to acute lower leg and foot pain. I would suggest running in your DS's: I've got a dusty pair in the cupboard that served me well for several 10km's, and a half-mara. By all means run shorter races (;)

[Sparkie]

I would recommend them for 10km, but be wary for marathons. I find I get blisters and numb feet much more readily in them (although this is more from interval work than racing).

Mentally, they are a big boost. I warm up in normal shoes, and then switch to flats for the run-throughs. Instantly I feel light and fast, and mentally ready to race.

[Jogger]

I used to wear racers a long time ago (photo of me running 83mins half marathon in 1985 - wearing Reebok Paris - if its good enough for Steve Jones, its good enough for me). I did a stack of 10kms and halfs and a marathon, but then decided I didn't really like racing in them and stuck with my regular trainers.

For a fast person Dave, you won't feel happy until you've tried a pair out yourself - they might work well for you. The only advice would be to make sure you do enough shorter stuff in them before you attempt a full marathon in them.

[DuncanTheIncredibleDivingHorse]

Uncle Dave, I think you should try them. I love mine (DS Racers) and they are definitely faster than my DS Trainers. And Sparkie is right - they do give you a boost mentally. And they're brightly coloured...

I use mine for 5km, 10km, sprints on the oval, some XC courses and have run a couple of half marathons in them without problems, although this might be pushing it a bit for me at 90kg. I certainly wouldn't use them for a marathon, but I'm quite a few weight divisions above you.

cheers
djl

[tim]

I am not fast and never will be but I like racing flats. I reckon you get better feedback through them. So it is good way to work on your form. If you land lightly then there is no "pounding" and no pain.

Maybe it is not about the weight factor but the flats help you keep good form even later in the race?

I also believe good form is not only a luxury for the elite but is something even for us slower guys to strive for.

I see new balance are selling flats for $45 .

tim

[Action]

I am a racing flats man, well, up to half marathon anyway. The only marathon in flats I have run I suffered v.sore feet.

The physics of lifting 100gms+ less per foot scientifically says you must go better, the psychology of it is definitely worthwhile - pulling on racing flats = time to run fast. However, find a pair and do some of your shorter faster training in them. The biomechanics change subtly from trainer to racer (lower heel, less support, different flex points, lighter weight) and you don't want to surprise those peripheral muscles and tendons with extra work and bigger extensions due to the racer - injury territory. Get a pair - that sub 32 will definitely happen with them!

Good to see somone of Dr JH's calibre spelling out a 30 sec improvement over 10k. Nice to put a number to it.

[downunder runner]

thanks for asking this question, Uncle Dave.....it was just the one I was about to ask !!

It has been suggested to me to buy racing flats too for longer races....half and full marathon, but I too am unsure, scared of injury.

I am light (58kgs) and a fairly efficient runner, so what shall I get??? I have already some Nike Air Zoom Elites....they are light, but not really 'racing flats'. I do like them however, and have heard of NIke Air Zoom Katana which are lighter (I get a big discount on Nike shoes that is why I said these) But what other brands and models of racing flats work for you guys and girls out there ??????

[Kelvin]

I'll admit i swear by my racing flats for road marathons and ultras, have used various editions of ASICS DS Racers mostly (and trust me some have been much better than others the latest is not always the best i find). Only problem i've had were when i upgraded to ASICS Magic Racer and found that the predominately plastic parts around the sole made it feel like i was worse than barefoot (i think they were fine for about 400 K's but then this come into play !).
Not 100 percent happy with my latest DS Racers as have a sore point just near the ball of my foot which i've gotten rid of by adding and extra insole (and thus probably losing the lightweight advantage !), but seems to do the trick, will certainly be using for Sundays Williamstown Marathon and probably also for Grafton to Coffs 80 K (off hand have got around 800 race K's out of them so far).
Certainly find the difference weightwise really good when i compare them to the K26's i train in.
Dave simple answer is try them in the store and see just how they feel, basically they won't magically improve by running in them,

Hope that helps,

Kelvin ;)

[lebusqp]

Dave i have found 30-40s difference at 10k and 2-4m over a marathon. the ? in the marathon is running style/biomechanics. i under pronate and hate road running as it always hurts my feet so it is a big risk for me. the last time i wore them in a marathon i ran 2.53 with a toilet stop. the next 3 marathons in training shoes were 2.58x2 and 2.57. the problem was that i was very sore in the feet and calves after the 2.53 moreso than the times i ran in trainers.

[Colin]

OK old guys, remember the 'Adidas Marathon 80's ' with the heel flaps providing the shock absorbance, extremely light, that was my favourite racing shoe in the mid 80's. The others are right, mentally you know you are racing, and your legs just feel so much lighter.
I did races up to half in them, did very well at x-country, and including my 5k pb. I did have a predisposition to achilles soreness due to the lower heel lift, but that could also have just been due to running harder.

My marathon PB was done in an Adidas trainer that was more on the lighter side (more racing weight than training), don't know the model, but it had the webbing around the midsole which was supposed to spread shock. Could have been Oregons, would certainly be in my top three shoes used over a 27yr period in terms of injuries, comfort, lightness of feel and times.
(BTW, Also ran my 800 pb - 2:02- on the track in those , much to the chagrin of one of our senior officials, who thought that I could have broken 2min in spikes-but having never seriously raced in spikes I didn't think it was worth the risk. What's my point again,.. they were certainly light trainers)

So Dave, you've probably got another 20-30s up your sleeve if you put on the racers in the 10km, certainly worth it, but I would recommend only using it when going for a win/place or PB, the other races you use as training, stick with the trainers.
Also, if you lace on the racers, it will show the others you mean business--a bit of psych. :)

[lactatehead]

I do quite a few training runs in racing flats and I am planning to do my long runs in them when I build up for my next marathon. If you are light and you don`t get any problems wearing them in training then you should be OK for the marathon. I know a few guys who have run the marathon in them without any problems.

[Phantom Strider, retired]

[indent]quote:

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I run marathons in New Balance 330 racing flats that are said by the maker to be able to be used for marathons.

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[/indent]I also use the 330s for full and half marathons.
New Balance make three 'flats'. Of these, the 300 series has the most cushioning and support, the 200s less, and the 100s the least and they are obviously intended for progressively shorter distances.

[Colin]

Dave,
I picked up the DS trainers in a shop last night and the weight seems very, very light for a trainer. Also picked up the racer and although lighter still, don't know by how much, and certainly not in the 20s-30s 10km advantage level as I indicated before.
Maybe check the weight difference first mate, before splashing out $$$.
All the best.

[Uncle Dave]

Thanks everyone,

I've been convinced to get a pair. I'll see how they hold up for a few 10k's before trying anything longer in them.

A very grateful,

Uncle Dave

[Sawadee]

I was just wondering if Uncle Dave had finally invested in a pair of running flats?
His 32:14 at Lane Cove striders 10k yesterday is considerably quickly than previous attempts!
Maybe Papa Luigi is inspiring his nephew uncle to dig a bit deeper? :unsure: B) B)

[Action]

Sawadee,
Unc was in trainers again yesterday. He was checking out my Gel Bondi racers after the race (a pair of sunglasses comes in handy for the Bondi's :) ). He has a Striders PB of 32:01, so he was on song yesterday given it was the slowest of the Striders 10k courses.
Action :)

[whenwouldiberunning]

uncle dave, i have run a marathon in asics ds racers and blew up at 35km after not being able to feel my feet and calfs. i ran my last marathon in mizuno wave phantom flats which are somewhere between a ds trainer and a ds racer. still does not stop the pain!! :) i think the ds racers are good if you can stay up on your fore foot for long periods of time and in most marathons thats not the case. as always you must have trained in them, as you cannot experiment when it comes to a marathon. good luck.

[nevofnewtown]

I use to wear racing flats or spikes when I was younger and running fast (1.50 800's 10 km about 30.30) now when I run (age 38 against mid 20's) I consider my weight and recovery times needed between workouts. (68 kg in the past and now about 75kg)

In anything upto about 15 km I say go for a racing flat. (providing your within a good body weight zone) For half and full marathons - have a think about the time you have spent in your well loved trainers. You know the sore spots, you know where in the race you may expect to get blisters / soreness. Using a shoe that you may not of run more than a few longish runs in,. You may not of got enough feed back from the shoes yet.

Racing flats I think are for those on the road for less than about 2.30 marathon. I would use the trainer/ racer like the Asics Gel DX trainer IX. The other thing I have found with racer flats- they only lasted me about 4 -5 races before the support in them gave up.

Using racing flats on the track I think is essential. They help you getting up on your toes etc.

[weary]

[indent]quote:

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Originally posted by Phantom Strider:
New Balance make three 'flats'. Of these, the 300 series has the most cushioning and support, the 200s less, and the 100s the least and they are obviously intended for progressively shorter distances.

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[/indent]As phantom says, a flat is not necessarily a flat. To discuss flats v trainers is to overgeneralise to the point of being useless. Some trainers are so lightweight they are almost flats (eg Asics DS Trainer) and some flats are so cushioned that they are almost trainers.

Some flats are obviously more suited to running a 5k in than a marathon and vice versa.

Should you race in lighter shoes than you train in? Yes

How light should you go? That's up to you, and something you'll need to experiment with.

Personally I weigh 76kgs off and just ran Canberra Marathon in Brooks Racer STs and had no problems (apart from a blister or 2).

adw

[Steve 'The Footman']

I usually say that whether you will benefit from wearing racing flats depends on your ability/speed and your running form. A good rule of thumb is that if you run faster than 4:30 to 4:00/km then they will make a significant difference. At slower paces they may not have enough support and you may run slower after pounding your legs to death. If you have really bad biomechanics then it may never be good to wear racers although you can compromise by using lightweight trainers like the DS trainer.

Uncle Dave is obviously fast enough that they would make a significant difference even up to 1 minute for 10km. He should be able to run a marathon with them and run up to 5 minutes faster.

The one important thing to do is make sure you do your speed training in them. You need to get used to the specific feel of them at the pace you will be running otherwise you will not develop the appropriate efficiency and power. Sub 31 minutes hear you come! :)

[wombatface]

Uncle Dave, I've used racing flats in races up to the half marathon and they are faster than normal trainers - maybe 30-45 seconds at 10k and 1-2 minutes for a half.

My trainers however are heavier than DS trainers which are a fairly light shoe anyway. You should try one of the new 'super light' racers. One of our runners imported them direct but I can't rememember the brand. The manufacturer takes great delight in claiming they are *only* guarenteed for some pathetic low amount of kilometres. Presumably after this time they self-destruct in a cloud of dust. I have never felt shoes this light - the upper being made of a tissue-like material. I'm guessing they'd be half the weight of DS racers.

For lightness of course, you can't beat barefoot. But you're probably limited to track races under 5k and cross country on grass or sand.

[Vinny]

Uncle Dave

I have been a regular user of very light racing flats for any road distance up to and including the half marathon. I find they give me a race day confidence boost after spending all my other distance training in heavy training shoes.

However, they give minimal support (resulting in post-race joint pains sometimes), can be prone to giving blisters (if you don't wear socks in races - like me) and generally wear out quickly.

I would recommend that anyone new to them keep their initial races at no more than 10km until they are satisfied their body can tolerate the differences.

Good luck.

[tim]

You could always try the poor man's racing flats - Dunlop Volleys.


tim

[HazBean]

DS Trainer is what I currently use for training as the Kayanos were to stiff in the arch for me and were causing injury. Probably should find something with a bit more cushioning to complement.

Personally, I think the DS Trainer is fine for racing though I use the Tiger Paw which is a bit lighter. Depends on how serious the race is, really. Racing flat fine up to 1/2 M for me.

On whether it makes a difference, I'd say yes but that it is impossible to benchmark as you can't wear two different pairs of shoes in the same race. 40 secs saving in a 10k would seem to me to be on the high side.

[ingrid]

Tim,
I just wanted to say thankyou for putting up that link to new balance, on Wednesday I called up and ordered the $45 racing flats, the service was just fantastic. Friday morning 7:30am the courier was here! Im going to try them out this morning, but just thought I'd say thanks, because I never knew about that site.

[Uncle Dave]

I'd also like to say a big thanks for the advice. I invested in a pair of DS racers during the week, and can't wait to try them out.

A very appreciative,

Uncle Dave

PS - Sawadee, Papa Luigi is definitely keeping me honest! Had his first training run over 10km today, and did 14 in 77 mins. Not bad for a 58 yr old newbie!