68 replies to this topic

[Simm]

Hi,
Currently getting fit for summer track season. Running X country etc but I feel I need to incorporate some speed/interval training now as I do not have great 400m natural speed.
How do I mix in some speed sessions while building on my aerobic capabilities at the same time without getting injured? Some example sessions would be good also!

[Mars]

do a Wednesday night fartlek run. Say 10-20 kms depending on where you're at strength wise.

I regularly do 20km fartlek on a Wednesday night. I do 6 x 5 minute surges with a 3 minute jog recovery. 20 minutes before the surges and then however long I need to get home at the end. About 80 minutes running all up.

But you want to build more 400 type speed you say. You could try this;

Basically run it steady and then throw in 12 x 1 minute surges where you lift to a fast pace.

Recover in between by running steadily for say 90 seconds to 2 minutes. Then go again.

Each surge can be over different terrain. Just stop surging when the one minute is up and ease back down to a jog.

Allow 20 minutes of steady running / jogging at the end of the surges.

But do the run as one long continuous run. Don't start the surges until you have been running for say 15 mins, so your legs are warm.

Cheers.

[ParkRat]

Get hold of Lydiard's book and follow his programs. Too many of today's middle distance runners don't do the mileage required to get results, either poorly coached or too lazy.

When you've been running 120 - 140 k per week with a long run of 30 k for 3 months then start your speed work. You'll reduce the risk of injury because you'll be strong, you'll recover between sessions and between intervals more quickly, and your leg speed will also have improved dramatically.

[Joe Cole]

fast1km

Below is a snapshot of Craig Mottrams training:

Monday: 2 easy runs
Tuesday: Track session (8-9K): 400M - 2K reps
Wednesday: 1 hour 30 min
Thursday: Multi-Pace run: 10 min at 170 bpm, 10 min at 175 bpm, 10 min at 180 bpm, 10 min at 170 bpm
Friday: 2 easy runs
Saturday: Hills (3 x 5 min)
Sunday: 1 hour 45 min

Total 170K

His Sunday Run of 1hr 45 would be at sub 4mins/kms pace, which would equate to approx 30kms. This system may not be what is right for Simm, but similiar systems certainly helped runners like Snell (coached by Lydiard).

[trackster]

Grant(fast1km) as you've been our fastest 800m runner in the last 10years, perhaps you could enlighten us on what you did for your 800m WINTER training?

And when I mean winter I mean an entire winter block back home in Australia, basically the years you didnt spend in Europe competing during our winter.

[Sparkie]

check out oztrack

this program has a fairly indepth discussion of what is trying to be achieved, as well as the author's PERSONAL experience with different sorts of training plans - ie Steve has tryed different approaches with a representitive sample of athletes, and adopted what WORKED.

I have always found the Lydiard compartmentalisation too extreme, but have never trained seriously enough to offer proper feedback.

Lydiard's programs are about winning Olympic golds - he aims to have his athletes reach a specific peak, rather than race over a season (a valid goal if you are good enough). He also aims to get his athlete's in shape to run 2-3 races in a week (heats, semis, finals) - this is one of his key arguments for the long runs - to build the stamina to get through a number of closely spaced fast races.

Lydiard also states (and I have no reason to doubt it), that anaerobic training reduces your aerobic base, so you need to get you aerobic fitness sky high before shifting to anaerobic work. Programs that take a more balanced approach to energy system training problably don't have this problem (certainly not to the same extremes).

Personally, I think you should include some VO2 max work (but in lesser focus than threshold work) in your winter program - but aim for longer, less intense intervals - say 2km intervals instead of 1k reps. Providing you stay at the lower end of the scale, you should not over extend the anaerobic system, and run with sufficient control to avoid injury.

[fast1km]

joe cole;

do not assume that mottram runs faster than 4min kms on his long run (as they say assumption is mother of all f ups), as in a recent article mottram states that he runs so slow on his long runs that the girls are often pass him..... this article was also posted on coolrunning....

and yes snell did run a few 30km runs, slogs i think he called them, and as i said there have been a couple of athletes whom have done high mileage and run fast 800m's,
but there have not been many, so why go with a method that has only been proven to work on a few athletes when there are other methods that have worked on a large number of athletes?


trackster:
is that a trick question, as you may know i didn't do alot of large winter seasons, due to injuries and being o/s, but i have done alot of base work it build ups to going os so i can comment on that if you would like.

[B-alls]

My 2 cents...aerobic training can greatly improve your final kick over the last 200m of an 800m race. You can have all the speed in the world but if you don't have aerobic fitness than you won't be able to utilise your speed over the last 200m because you will be too stuffed.

If you watch any high level 800m race in australia, the guy that typically kicks past the rest of the field to win usually only runs his last 200m in 26 or 27 secs at best. It's just that everyone else struggles to break 30 secs over the last 200m, but these guys could run 22 sec 200's on its own. Speed is overrated. Mottram claims to have run a 1.45.9 in training(I'll believe it when I see it) but you won't catch him doing any kind of 400m speed session in his training.

[trackster]

that would be great fast1km, love to hear your insight!

[fast1km]

thank you parkrat and mars, you have answered a question of my own: why are we so poor at 800m at the moment?

with suggestions such as doing a 30km run and doing a 10-20km fartlek for 400m speed (that was the question; combining sessions to build speed along with doing an aerobic base), it is not surprising we aren't doing great at 800m at the moment.


further more parkrat 30k run a week for 3months?
yes a couple of notable 800m runners have done this sort of mileage but the vast majority of 800m runners would do no where near that sort of training.
craig mottram would'nt do 30km for his 5km training.

p.s how does a 30km run improve leg speed for an 800m runner? if you could include some relevant scientific (running related not cycling or swimming) basis and possible references to articles it would be most informative (could this be Justin Gatlins new training method 30km runs? probably not)

Simm: some options i would suggest for speed maintenance during the base phase would be:
a session of short hills (say 100m or 20sec worth) with 10 reps, with walk / very slow jog backs. this can be done after an aerobic run

a few (max 4) 200's after a session at 800m pace

then sometime around august begin with one session a week at quicker than 800m pace maybe short recovery 150's, this session should then get quicker with longer recoveries and will turn into a 400m pace session and then turn into a quicker than 400m pace closer to your race date.

please note 30km runs and 10-20km fartleks probably won't help the speed of an athlete who is capable of a sub 2min 800m (and may in fact be a detriment if the athletes style during these long runs is different to his sprinting / 800m style)

[David B]

Grant (Fast1km) - I too would very much like to hear your insight. Particularly how you would train a couple of kids for 800m for a race in August - they are 12yrs old.

Dave Burgess

[Simm]

I do agree that to much speed work through winter harms areobic fitness. This makes sense to me as to much areobic work kills speed. We agree?
I think I will limit my speed work to short hills, 150's and the occassional 1-2km time trial while I get as fit as possible up to about late July then add on some more specific 800m stuff.
Thanks for everyone's input.

[HillsAths1]

I would have thought the most obvious thing would be to go and get a coach. Everyone is talking about following this program and that program... they were all developed by coaches. Find a coach who is working with athletes that have a similar goal, see if you like their style, if not find another coach until you find one who suits you.

[Simm]

I agree but it is not easy finding a group with similar goals, level of fitness, similar training time availablity and who live in proximity to work/home.

[HillsAths1]

Simm, as I dont come from Victoria I can not comment on the clubs there, but I can say that I am surprised that you say you find it difficult to find good clubs/coaches in Victoria.
If in doubt go to the AV site and check out the results section, see what clubs are churning out sub 2min 800 runners and head there.

[ParkRat]

Fast1K, I think you answered your own question. If you had tried more of an endurance base perhaps you might not have been injured as much. Just a thought. :D

Also, if you look at Australian rankings over the past 30 years, even with all the technological advances in tracks and shoes, the depth of our top times and their proximity to the Australian record are relatively poor.

Anyone who has had the conviction (and the sacrifice because it's bloody hard) of trying the Lydiard approach usually get results. I think the evidence is in the results of Lydiard/Cerutty coached runners up until the end of the 70's.

PS: I'm pretty sure Mottram runs 2 hours plus fairly frequently, and even Deek used to say for the first few k of his long runs he had trouble keeping up with the girls. Having said that, he was running close to 5 min miles by the end.

[lactatehead]

I agree with ParkRat. You only have to look at the depth back in the 70s and 80s when everyone knew that endurance training had proven results for middle distance runners.
OK, now we have more scientific knowledge about how training works but I think many people have been blinded by science. The old analogy about not putting a race tuned engine into a crappy old chassis still remains true.

[CB Mac]

The 800m is just barely middle distance, and while the best athletes don't always make the best coaches it is a brave person on this forum who tells fast1km how to run quick over 800m. Mottram is irrelevant to this subject- he is not an 800m runner (although he certainly does his long runs at a slow pace- probably no quicker then 4min/km average and definitely slower for the first section).

There are different ways to run fast, but you won't find a whole lot of 800m runners who include regular 30km runs as part of their winter regime. That is true now and it was true 30 years ago. Something Seb Coe said when he was in Melbourne was that even in the middle of winter, a half-miler/ miler should not be too far away from running a quick 400m, so he is obviously an advocate of including some fast stuff year round.

Get a coach, Simm. A good coach will adapt any training depending on the type of athlete you are, so advice on here is not going to be all that worthwhile.

[I wanna run]

interesting that someone who is in the top 5 runners ever produced by this country gets questioned on his methods...

my two cents is that you need to find that group so someone can say do this or that. without knowing what level you are at there is no point saying run 150k weeks or whatever. caoching is about tailoring the program to the athlete so what i do might not work for you. follow cowboys idea - get a coach. and as already said - if it doesnt work find another one until that works for you.

[Rudolf]

as for all the advance made in the last 2-3 decades :

shoes - very much nothing new in the shoe design,
racing flats or racing spikes were developed 2- 3 decades ago. All the new shoes are products targetting the unfit funrunners, with underdeveloped feet structures, so they can run too, without sorting their feet first, and sorting their core muscles first.
But none of it is going to move 2:01 runner into 1:59 runner, or 1:48 runner into 1:44 runner.

As for the other science - this science was busy developing banned substances, and more banned substances and those substances which could not be detected, and the science was busy in developing protocols on how to take them, how to combine them with training, with recovery and how to mask them, and how to take brake before competiton, but mainly before doping testing.
Lots of countries were having governement sponsored Institues running these programms
and it is very questuionable, if this is over, or is it still running but more efficiently
and hidden.

None of that is going to help a runner, who wants to improve the 800m time and is drug free,
for this runner the science did not do absolutely anything in the last 2-3 decades.

So why should we have better runners now, than 2-3 decades ago ?

Than there is an issue of propaganda of the so called sport supplements - the drinks, bars, etc
which is taking toll on runners health, destroying the imune, and hormonal systems, leading to injuries and weaknesses, so runners are not able tolerate the training models from 2-3 decades ago.

And lastly, half of kids - teenagers is going the
cool way - drugs and selfdestruction, other half
is going into paying sports - so who is left to run ???

[Mars]

[indent]quote:

---

Originally posted by fast1km:


please note 30km runs and 10-20km fartleks probably won't help the speed of an athlete who is capable of a sub 2min 800m (and may in fact be a detriment if the athletes style during these long runs is different to his sprinting / 800m style)

---

[/indent]Peter Snell, 1:44 on grass...might disagree with you. Plus 2 800m gold medals from 2 attempts.

But with a 1:45 for 800 yourself. This garners massive respect obviously.

So yeah I take back everything and say listen to Grant. And CB Mac. And Ralph Doubell. And Seb Coe.

400m speed. 10x100m on a slight down hill with a 3 minute jog recovery.

Knock yourself out.

[ParkRat]

No disrespect intended. Just an interesting topic about which I feel strongly. Perhaps I misheard and thought we were talking half marathon not half mile!! Perhaps I'm just old fashioned. Cheers, Spehry.

[Freshprince of Dmac]

[indent]quote:

---

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by fast1km:


please note 30km runs and 10-20km fartleks probably won't help the speed of an athlete who is capable of a sub 2min 800m (and may in fact be a detriment if the athletes style during these long runs is different to his sprinting / 800m style)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Peter Snell, 1:44 on grass...might disagree with you. Plus 2 800m gold medals from 2 attempts.

---

[/indent]Indeed, Lydiard's approach emphasised a high milage conditioning phase, however this was to build aerobic capacity, not speed. Snell would do speed sessions (e.g. 200m repeats) as track season approached.

Simm (original post) asked for examples of speed sessions. 30 km runs and 20km fartlek are not good examples of SPEED SESSIONS. Even Snell would tell you that

[nvrgvup]

After a continuous run, do 5 - 6 strides with walk back reovery. Not neccessarily a speed session but can be helpful to stay in touch with speed.

[Tyler Durden]

I'm not going to pretend that I know everything, and I not going to get into an argument over what is right and what is wrong. All I'll do is give you an example of what I did in the winter before running 48 -1:47 - 3:40 in the same season

Mon: 20 min WU + 4x100m Strides + 6-8x150m quick (16-17sec) with slow WB rec + 10 min CD

Tue: 20 min WU + 4x100m Strides + 5x1000m with 3min rec 2:40-42 + 10 min CD

Wed: 30-40 min run @5:45 mile pace (worth noting that what I thought was a mile loop near my home turned out to be 1750m, so it was prob 5:25pace) always ran the last kn under 3 min...why? I have no idea, just felt like it.

Thu: 20 min WU + 4x100m strides + 2x4x160m hill (22-23sec) with JB rec then 5 min (each rep was basically flat out)

Fri: Rest

Sat: X-Country race (anywhere from 3.8km to 12km) or reps on track; normal WU, plus 5x800 in 2:03-05 with 4min rec

Sun: Long run anything from 60 min to 1h40min with the pace varied for no particular reason other than myself and Rob Fregon (1:48.03) used to end up trying to drop each other during the run.

No double days, not a great deal of mileage and no plyo’s or weights. Looking at it now, it seems all too easy, but it worked. Could I have run better if I did more? Who knows? I know I could have run quicker than the 1:47.60 I did that year if I was not knocked off the track with 400 to go, but at the end of the day I didn’t. I 1999/2000 I did 13 weeks at 160km a week and got very very fit (in one session I ran 3km – 2km – 1km with 4min rec in 8:21- 5:18 and 2:28), but ended up with a stress fracture and have never really been the same since. If I had of just stuck with what I was doing I may have just improved with age. It should also be noted that we had 6 sub 1:50 runner’s in the group back then and now we only have 2 sub 1:50 guys in our state and the state champ is 33!!

Take from that what you may.

TD B)

[David B]

Tyler - very interesting reading - many thanks for taking the time out - it is much appreciated.

Dave Burgess

[brenno]

Simm,

While I am not as qualified in this area as Justin, for speed maintenance or bringing speed back into the legs I find the 6 to 8 x 150's he described really works well, and can be fitted in with the rest of your program.

If you are haning around at the Frankston cross country this weekend seek out coaches/athletes because most have good ideas that they are happy to discuss.

Brenno

[Sparkie]

This may be sacrelege, but did Lydiard coach another 800m runner of note besides Snell?

His plan certainly worked for Snell, but I have never seen another 800m runner of note adopt this sort of program. Certainly there are aspects of Lydiard's training in other programs, but this is very different to buying his book and copying the plans within. I think the fact that every Olympic champion and world record holder apart from Snell did not use extreme compartmentalisation says more than Snell's results.

Funnily enough, 800m running is I believe the least changed event on the program (the record has been broken the fewest times). Snell's World Record would have ranked him 16th in the world last year, and is still in the top 600 all-time - unheard of for a time run in the 60s (except altitude assisted 400m runs). The exact significance of this - I'm not sure, but it possibly means that this event may be more heavily influenced by natural ability than training technique, than other events.

[Rudolf]

[indent]quote:

---

Originally posted by Sparkie:
The exact significance of this - I'm not sure, but it possibly means that this event may be more heavily influenced by natural ability than training technique, than other events.

---

[/indent]Sparkie this kind of sounds like throwing the towel in, well it is natural ability, not much we can do with the training.
That does not resonate with me at all.

I agree with Your other comments, that Lydiards system was not widely used by other succesful 800m runners.

I have complete book of Jarmila Kratochvilova trainings as it was progressing over the years.

It was nothing like Lydiard, it was actualy quite the oposite.

Now, I know everybody is going to claim, the drugs etc, but be remainded everybody was taking too (and possibly still is), but nobody run her time, times actualy, she had 400m WR for a while too. I do not believe she extra special tablets not available to others, and I know her training was different.
If her training was adapted today, I believe it will get lots of girls to around 2:00 or slightly better, and the boys under 1:50.

My feel is that 800m is not understood.

[Tyler Durden]

Where does one get there hands on this book on Jarmila Kratochvilova.

She has awesome pb's; 11.09 (I think she ran 10.97w) 21.97 47.99 (31 times under 50)1:53.28 (12 times under 1:58). Drugs or no drugs, that's a great range,

TD B)

[HillsAths1]

As with many things in life there are many ways to get from A to B. Many athletes have tried different programs and it is really a trial and error system to discover what works best for an individual athlete. Some may respond to high volumes of work where others respond better to quality(and most somewhere inbetween).
Getting back to the original thread, there is no right or wrong for everybody,you have to experiment and see what works best for you.

[Mars]

Yeah I'd say you're spot on the money there Sparkie. Snell a freak and a less periodised approach much more workable.

Speedwork is good fun too, particularly in a squadron of 4 or 5 buring around some 150's or 200's. Cheers ;)

[lactatehead]

It is true that those who advocate lots of conditioning in order to become a good middle distance runner always use Snell as an example. The same could be said for the speed merchants who always quote Seb Coe`s training, even though he was a bit of a freak the way he trained.

[Rigobert]

Looking Looking at it now, it seems all too easy, but it worked. Could I have run better if I did more? Who knows? I know I could have run quicker than the 1:47.60 I did that year if I was not knocked off the track with 400 to go, but at the end of the day I didn’t. I 1999/2000 I did 13 weeks at 160km a week and got very very fit (in one session I ran 3km – 2km – 1km with 4min rec in 8:21- 5:18 and 2:28), but ended up with a stress fracture and have never really been the same since. If I had of just stuck with what I was doing I may have just improved with age. It should also be noted that we had 6 sub 1:50 runner’s in the group back then and now we only have 2 sub 1:50 guys in our state and the state champ is 33!!

Take from that what you may.

[indent]quote:

---

---

[/indent]Haha a classic paragraph from a great man. I hope that you are still in this sort of form when I get back to Oz next year. Perhaps you could also enlighten all of us on what the CURRENT VICTORIAN CHAMP is doing in terms of his winter base for this season? I heard that it included stacking on 13kgs and only doing training sessions hypothetically in his mind ;)

I would tend to agree with the approach suggested by both Grant and Rinaldi as I too have sometimes erred on the side of running too many "junk miles" and not improved my 800m running at all. Although the topic of 800m training is an interesting one that has been discussed over many hours at both training and bars....

[dave1678]

I'm much happier with a Lydiard style schedule myself, although mainly a distance runner 10K +, I do boundary umpiring in winter which is more the domain of the sprinter. (Most top guys are 400/800m runners). The only speed I do in summer is 3K and 5K runs at the end of triathlons or swims (aquathons) but I still pick up my speed each winter doing mainly long stuff and whatever they tell me to do at squad training, VO2 and speed.
I've read Snell's book and you'll find he did strides more often than not all year round. The key though was they weren't anaerobically intense. I.E. less than 20 secs.
So in one sentence: train aerobically but sprints with full recovery will only help keep you fast.
and everyone saying do 6-8 150's you're spot on the mark, one of my favourite speed sessions, walk or slow jog back recovery.

Interestingly though when Snell ran his first speed session of the season 20x200 usually it was tremendously fast average under 27 sec for someone who has done no anaerobic work in at least 3 months.

[Rudolf]

Kratochvilova - book :

I have no idea if it was translated.
I bought the book 2 decades ago back in Czechoslavakia in the original - czech language.

[Tyler Durden]

The thing we must remember about Snell is that he only ever once reached his target of 100 miles a week during a 10 week block (1000 miles total). This was in the build up to Tokyo in 64 and it was after he left Lydiard. So to advocate we all try run a 100 miles a week is a little misleading. Snell is a totally different athlete than the one's racing around the tracks today. We are talking about a guy the weight 80kgs and stood 179 cms. Any coach today would tell him that he needs to lose weight! (Ironically, I’m currently 179/80kgs after 15 weeks off with a stress fracture in my pelvis) Look at how big Grant looked when he was racing at his best and he was 185/74kgs. Snell was a freak and to follow the training of a freak as gospel is not sound logic. All you can do is look at as many programs as possible (I have copies of tons and they are all different) and take from them what you may.

TD
B)

PS does anyone speak Czechoslavakian here!

[Rudolf]

[indent]quote:

---

Originally posted by Tyler Durden:

PS does anyone speak Czechoslavakian here!

---

[/indent]me of course.

Thats why i read Kratochvilova and Zatopek in original

and russian (Valerij Borzov in original)

[Stu Mac]

A very interesting topic, that this hack is looking at and trying to work out how he can concentrate on his 800m this summer. For the couple of posters who have posted above who know me, CB & the DMAC, look out for Stu's fun & games this summer.

:D

[Deadrock]

Grant: p.s how does a 30km run improve leg speed for an 800m runner? if you could include some relevant scientific (running related not cycling or swimming) basis and possible references to articles it would be most informative.

Snell and Halberg had vicious kicks developed with hill circuit work after long base periods where EACH WEDNESDAY there was a fartlek session during which there were plenty of short fast bursts of up to 150m. These used the alactic creatine phosphate system and maintained leg speed from track and reinforced good neuromuscular coordination at higher speeds. Because the distances never crossed over into the undesired longer glycolytic zones which woyuld produce significant acidosis, that was OK. So Lydiard wasn't against fast running at all.. he was all for it... but he was against work between 150 and 600m or further at flat out paces.

There are a number of studies on fibre type recruitment dating as far back as Costill 1977 and reported in his book (1989).

There is nothing sacred about the distance of 30km; for any individual building up his or her aerobic endurance there comes a point where we deplete available glycogen in the main fibre types being used.This may occur at one hour run strongly for you, or 2 hours for me. So long as the "heavy legged" feeling occurs, we're achieving this.

Although slow twitch fibers can preferentially burn fats at low intensities, with stronger aerobic efforts their readily available carbohydrate stores (blood glucose, muscle glycogen) will gradually be used up. Meanwhile, the fast twitch fibers have not been used much at all, and still have most of their glycogen stores intact, UNLESS the early pace has been too fast for the level of conditioning.*

Muscle tension with each stride has to be maintained, and especially on uphill climbs, this recruits the intermediary fast twitch fibres next, with their own (limited) stores of muscle glycogen. These fibres will then use up their glycogen, eventually having to resort to their third-choice fuel of fats, thereby lowering power output. This leaves only the very fast (IIB) fibres with glycogen and creatine phosphate reserves to maintain tension, and these are recruited last.

The constant pressure upon fast twitch and intermediary fast twitch fibers under the pressure of lowering fuel availability forces the muscles to adapt over time. They adapt by becoming more efficient at replenishing and storing glycogen, utilizing fats, and increasing the ratio and number of intermediary fast twitch fibers (Type IIa), which increases the potential of the body to run anaerobically when glycogen levels are restored.

Why? These fibers are primarily glycolytic, so because there are more of them across a given muscle, potential glycolytic capacity has been increased. (The downside is that the ratio of very explosive IIB fibers will decrease, but there’s an answer for that in the next phase of training, which uses eccentric ballistic lengthening contractions of the muscle fibres to invoke a reversal of the size principle in normal muscle fibre sequential firing...another story altogether, but there's very good research on this..basically Lydiard's hill springing and bounding drills did this without the fear of injury that very fast running would invoke, and without the acidosis.)

So...long running till tired and heavy in the legs will eventually increase the body's ratio of intermediary IIA fibres, which are the very ones used for glycolytic fast running. This is why Snell ran 1.44.3 for 800m on grass in 1962 within 9 weeks of running with the leaders in a marathon at 2.25 pace till 35kms... then blowing to 2.41.

Snell didn't do many 100 mile weeks,you're right (which is another myth about Lydiard training; it's very individual. You do as much long running as you can safely handle and still improve from..it varies considerably with individuals, and within individuals over their careers) but he was terribly strong over the 22 mile hill circuit every week, and usually got in at least three long strong runs a week. He was deliberately getting the miles in to be able to run a good marathon because he knew from Rome 1960 victory that it came off the ability to put together long strong runs over hills before commencing hill work and Vo2 max type work then glycolytic type work.

Of course, his 400m best was 47.6, and 800m 1.44.3. Krachotilova ran 47.99, and 1.53.3 (thanks Rudolf..it was 1 a.m!)...or 9.2 sec slower. Cram's best listed 400m time is 49.2 400m: 1.42.8 800m; the guy loved putting in the miles like all the Poms did.. eventually ran about 28.20 10km too. Peter Elliott ran a 1.43 plus...he loved cross-country seasons.. John Walker 1.44.9...1/2 marathon 63 minutes. Steve Ovett 1.44.0...British Junior cross-country champion, 13.20 @ 5000m, and 65 min half marathon... lots of long runs.. thousands of miles in the tank before each summer according to Harry Wilson's book. Also around 47.6 for 400.

Joaquim Cruz.. runs of 90-120 minutes easy in forest every 2 or 3 days alternated with higher intensity work in his preparation phase..
Rudolf Harbig, 1.46.6 and 46 in 1938... runs of up to 3 hours in forest alternating with fartleks and runs of 2000m in 6 minutes, etc..500m in 65s...on other days. It's all documented.

And Coe himself ran bloody good base periods in Italy approaching 90 miles a week on occasion, with PLENTY of long strong runs of 12-15 mile length. Plenty of evidence for this these days; the 30 mile weeks were a lovely media smokescreen. Some of the guys who trained with him ended up racing in NZ and thought it was a great joke about his ballet dancer of the track/ float like a reindeer stuff. Absolute nonsense. A myth. Set 800 and 1500 running in Australasia back 15 years because people bought into all that stuff and stopped getting strong before commencing the necessary glycolytic work.

So..long steady running at higher aerobic speeds will eventually recruit the fast twitch fibres and force adaptation without acidosis of note, whereas reps over say 300m flat out will recruit the same fibres quite quickly, and empty them of glycogen, but there will be lots of acidosis and no adaptation in the capillarisation of type IIB fast twitch to IIA intermediary fast twitch/glycolytic/oxidative (also called IIdX in some journals).

Lydiard's way safely increases the ratio of IIA oxidative glycolytic fibres, then when glycogen is recovered, that increased glycolytic cross-sectional capacity can eventually be put to work and drilled with race-specific pace work over 300-600 distances with long and full recoveries.

OK. If you want more you'll have to buy my book when it's out. Fully referenced.

[Mars]

Deadrock.

THANK YOU!!!

[Still Building]

Good work Deadrock

Edited by Still Building, 27 August 2007 - 04:36 PM.

[coconnor]

Deadrock said:

The constant pressure upon fast twitch and intermediary fast twitch fibers under the pressure of lowering fuel availability forces the muscles to adapt over time. They adapt by becoming more efficient at replenishing and storing glycogen, utilizing fats, and increasing the ratio and number of intermediary fast twitch fibers (Type IIa), which increases the potential of the body to run anaerobically when glycogen levels are restored.


I'm not sure if I should discuss physiology with some one who obviously knows more about it than I do, but what is the advantage to an 800m runner if his fast twitch muscle fibres become more efficient at replenishing glycogen stores?
800m runners are unlikely to deplete glycogen stores.

I also see no advantage to an 800m runner if his fast twitch fibres become better at utilising fats.

Do the number of intermediary fast twitch fibres (type IIA) really increase? My (limited) understanding is that training will make these fibres act either more like fast twitch or more like slow twitch, but that the actual number of fibres does not increase. And even if they do, is this really an advantage if it is at the expense of fast twitch type IIB fibres?


There also seems to be a belief among some people that Sebastian Coe was really a high mileage runner and everything he and his father ever wrote is some kind of smoke-screen to fool people.
I find this hard to swallow.

I have read everything I have ever been able to get my hands on with regards to Coe's training. He MIGHT have run the occassional 90 mile week, although I see no evidence of it from what I have read.
The long runs he did do appear to be mostly at a hard pace, more like extended threshold runs.
He seems to have run a lot of threshold and VO2max work to build endurance and often ran less than 30-40 miles in a week.

Peter Snell, Ralph Doubell, Alberto Juanterena, Sebastian Coe, they all trained differently.
Different body types, different physical and psychological make up, different training, but they all ran world records and won Olympic gold medals.

[MPT]

A couple of years back, US Track and Field News published a series of articles discussing the decline of American 800m running since the 1980’s (I think the articles were published during 2003 or 2004). The articles discussed in detail the relative merits of anaerobic and aerobic based training programs etc…. The articles referred to the performances of Coe and Cruz as support for anaerobic/speed based training programs.
Now I am not going to enter an opinion on this matter of 800m training, but the reason I am relating this anecdote is the series of articles prompted a long and comprehensive letter to editor of T&FN from Peter Coe (Seb’s father and coach). In his letter, Peter Coe basically refuted the arguments in the articles supporting the anaerobic/speed based training and the belief that Seb Coe only did low mileage, high speed training. He said that 800m running was still primarily an aerobic based event and that a strong cross country/road racing training base was essential to success as an 800m runner. He pointed out that a lot of Seb’s success stemmed from his development years doing cross country and 3000m running (Seb was an English Schools 3000m champion as well as a successful cross country athlete as a school boy). In the conclusion of the letter, Peter Coe stated that the American high school and college system’s tendency to classify the 800m as primarily a long sprint event was missplaced, and that a strong aerobic cross country based training program was essential for developing successful 800m runners.
I think I kept a copy of the letter somewhere and I will try and find it. Anyway, I just thought that people reading this thread may be interested in what Peter Coe had to say on the topic.

Regards

MPT

[fast1km]

Ok, been off coolrunnings for a couple of days and this thread is looking healthy..

So there are a few things to clear up:

1. to the one eye bandit: I have run 1.45 @ 76kg (99), 78kg (2000) and 80kg (2001)

2. Training for a couple of 12 year olds is very different and I am loathe to dish out info on getting a 12 year old to run a fast 800, ( I coach some young kids and my philosophy is more on general development than trying to run as fast as possible, this is such a fine line though so maybe email me if you want some ideas)

3. I never stated that aerobic running is not beneficial to 800m, I actually believe that 800m running is 70% aerobic

4. To the question of “will a 30km run improve leg speed” great post by deadrock agree 100%, but also a contradiction as whilst you state that aerobic runs will eventually start using fast twitch muscle fibres, you also state that for neuromuscular coordination (which is far more important for leg speed) that shorter faster efforts were necessary.

Is it therefore wrong to suggest that without this neuromuscular training that longer running will actually train fast twitch muscles to operate in slower manner? And if a runner runs in a different style and therefore recruits different muscle groups whilst doing slower aerobic work will they still have the same adaptation in the muscle groups that they use for sprinting / faster running? (I don’t know the answer to this one, and I fear it will be dependant on the individual athlete).
I fear that the adaptations you talk of will only be of use to leg speed if used in conjunction with some form of neuromuscular coordination for speed. (for those people who argue that this neuromuscular coordination can be done by a once or twice a week session closer to race times try this simple task: once or twice a week take a basket ball go to the baseline / 3 point line and do 20 jumpshots do this for 6 weeks, at the end of six weeks can you get all 20 shots in? neuromuscular training for sprinting is not to dissimilar!)


5. deadrock with 800m running it is easy to look at one side of a persons training and background to justify a certain method, for example as a junior steve ovett was also in the GB 400m training squad, the year which cram ran his 800m pb he was regularly doing sessions of quick 200m’s and 150m’s (like 22sec and 16sec stuff), although I think he attributes this training to his Achilles injury, I also don’t think that cram ran very many 400m and probably would have run much faster ( I see you neglected seb coes and steve ovetts 400m times), but to further enhance your argument please look at my 400m pb of 51.25, with 800m time of 1.45.21, and note that I too enjoyed running x country (I have something in common with perter elliot!!), ran a couple of good steeplechases (martin dent will back me up on this) and my only trip over 3000m on track was pretty quick for a junior.
Please note this is not a criticism but just pointing out that 800m running is varied even in an individuals career.

6. What I did for WINTER TRAINING…

All runs v.hilly unless stated
All sessions with approx 15min w/up and w/down

Sunday: am long run 10 -16km hard (35min 10km / 55min 16km)
Monday: am weights then circuit and 20min easy, 8km moderate
Tuesday: am 20min moderate, pm long reps 800m up to 7mins
Wednesday: am weights then circuit and 20min easy, 8km to 10km hard (3.15km pace)
Thursday: am long hill surge 3km (stromlo hill in act) plus (5 – 10) x ( 1min – 2min hills), pm 20m flat moderate to hard.
Friday: 40min moderate, pm rest
Saturday: am plyometrics and sprints 40m to 120m, and 20min easy, pm: 20min hard (3.10km) around soccer fields so flat.


This is very generalised and I have done a lot of different things in my base work…..

[user1]

I've been following this interesting thread and was wondering well what is our current crop of 800m runners doing wrong or right then? What kind of training are they doing? Do any of them follow similar training programs to these greats? If its worked in the past you'd wonder why they wouldn't follow programs that are known to be successful!

[David B]

Fast1km - Many thanks for taking the time out to post - I appreciate it very much - a very very interesting read.

Cheers Dave Burgess

[Deadrock]

Fast 1 km; thanks for your post. Also Tyler Durden earlier wrote "The thing we must remember about Snell is that he only ever once reached his target of 100 miles a week during a 10 week block (1000 miles total). This was in the build up to Tokyo in 64 and it was after he left Lydiard."

Snell left Lydiard for a month or so because he got pissed off with Arthur happily telling everyone how Snell could beat world records, etc, etc...heaping pressure on Peter. It was a personality clash, not a training clash. They settled their differences, and got on with the job for Tokyo as a team.

Yes, Fast 1km, I do agree Cram would've been capable of faster than 49.2 when he was flying 1.42.8, but that is his fastest race time ever, run at 21 yrs, 10 months.

Now, Coe was timed at 45.0 or thereabouts in a relay for Loughborough, I think, but his best blocks start was about 46.8. Ovett was about 47.4 I think, as a junior. Correct me if I am wrong.


David Martin, who wrote the training book with Peter Coe, was with Dr Peter Snell at the launch of the Lydiard Foundation 1 week ago in Boulder.Both physiologists. My friend who was there said that Martin said matter of factly that 800m running depends totally on an aerobic foundation, and that Coe did lots of aerobic running. He stated 80 miles per week of base for Coe,last week.

One attendee queried the runners' panel that included Rod Dixon as well (1.47.6 800 and 2.08 marathon!!!), about taking gels during long runs because they inevitably started to blow up at 90 minutes, and therefore, couldn't do longer runs. Martin said "run slower". The purpose is to deplete glycogen in the relatively unused and still fresh fast twitch fibres, then once you've finished, carb up as much as you like.

Martin and Coe's book Training Distance Runners in its section on pg 144, table 3.8,refers to 12 week base periods building up from 30-40 mpw in 5-7 sessions/wk to 65-75 mpw in 10 sessions, then onto another 8 weeks of increasing intensity, growing to 12-13 sessions/wk with 4 weeks at 70-75 then 4 weeks at 75-80 mpw, then 7 weeks of harder tempo work, about 13 sessions a week, with 70 mpw, then 6 weeks consolidating.
In other words, before commencing hard glycolytic work there would be 25 weeks of varying tempos and intensities, mostly aerobic, of b/w 65 and 80 mpw (104-128 km week).

Seb Coe's circuit work was done joining in with a heap of PE students at Loughborough on their regular circuit sessions under George Gandy. It was all supplementary to his foundational aerobic and anaerobic bases.

Coe was recovering from a nasty foot injury in 1978, and down to less than 35 miles a week after a terrific initial base period, when he suddenly struck form and ran his breakthrough times. The fact that he was a student at Loughborough doing circuit work, plus the diominished mileage, quickly grew into Pommy sports media folklore.

Peter Coe wrote to Athletics weekly about Seb's training refuting all the mythology about his secret being circuit work, etc, etc..and one key line was "Seb is trained in an orthodox manner using known methods." (Sebastian Coe, Coming Back, David Miller, Pg 71). Coe loved to do 5000m-based training based on VO2 max intervals in today's lingo.

Anyhow...the question was endurance work and neuromuscular work. Long running won't "slow down" fast twitch fibres. It just doesn't use them; at least not until the slow twitch fibres are nearly all exhausted. Aerobic easy running of less than 80-90 minutes on parkland is one of life's great pleasures, and is a great restorative active recovery session from anaerobic work in the midst of heavy track preparation. If it's approaching threshold, then that's another matter entirely, and there are definitely times for different types of aerobic work like that well away from track preparation and racing.

During Snell's assault on the world mile and 800m/880 yard records in 1962 his total mileage actually increased. Every morning except Sunday he would religiously run a supplementary hour/10 miles relaxed. When at home it was around the local golf course. So his anaerobic work was constantly being buffered by aerobic. He ran an easy relaxed 22 miler within 4 days before a 1.46 800 in that series of runs, and I think there was another long run a few days before the 1.44.3. He was used to it, and was therefore able to cope with more anaerobic work than any man on the planet at the time.

Fast twitch is fast twitch, but it can atrophy, or lie dormant. Once a week drills using only alactic anaerobic efforts without invoking acidosis from glycolytic work will maintain a stimulus to the neuromuscular recruitment of such fibres.


Long running repeatedly, without any fast work, is a sure-fire way to get slower, yes, absolutely. However, if the fasrtlek work is maintained weekly during base, then all that speed and power comes back with hill circuit work and then the track preparation.

The kids I coach with Johnny Meagher on Lydiard principles do fast short strides, relaxed, every week of the year. We're talking 16 and 17 year olds who can come out of a cross-country season and within a couple of weeks run 50-51s 400's. Not one kid..at least three last year. Two ran 1.53 or faster at 17. One ran 3.50 1500.

The reference in the recent Runners World magazine to the Monna fartlek being a great speed session is plain misinformed. When I was racing with anyone who trained that way with 250m to go I knew it was going to be major fun. They didn't have a hope. And I wasn't super-fast; but I trained what I had.

Nowhere in a Monna fartlek is explosive speed or very fast running to one's current potential even remotely approached. What is trained instead is the ability to stave off fatigue at about 15s 100m speed, having run a series of glycolytic/anaerobic efforts with very short recovery. Worlds apart.

The skill set of fast running requires great coordination, very rested and fresh glycogen supplies, and no real acidosis in the system, which louses up coordination big-time! So true fast running is a skill learned in a non-glycolytic environment away from the bear on your back, where one can repeatedly run fast and relaxed with excellent technique over distances way too short to get into acidosis.

There are various strata of aerobic running, and recovery running is very under-valued. All of the great guys of today do lots of slow easy low-stress sandwiching of their major fast work with these recovery runs. Aussies just don't do them much at all, preferring the 4-letter word REST, meaning that they miss out on a golden opportunity to steadily distribute the metabolites of anaerobic work back to the liver, at the same time as keeping the blood pH neutral or slightly alkali.

Cheers, guys. Good post.

[Sparkie]

Whilst risking incurring the wrath of Colin, it is interesting to note that of the 20 men that have broken 1:43 for 800m, 11 are African and 9 are non-African. For sub 3:30 1500m runners, the breakdown is 13 African, 3 non-African. Top 400m runners are almost exclusively African-American.

Without reading anything more into it, this would seem to mark the 800m as a different event to all others. With only Kenya (7 - and I have included Wilson Kipketer in this group) and UK (3) producing more than one runner in the above list, it may not be that surprising that Australia hasn't produced many world class 800m runners lately - no one has!

Brazil, Cuba, Switzerland, Norway, Russia and USA have all only managed to produce only one sub 1:43 runner, and almost all of these countries have a much larger talent pool to draw on than Australia.

[Deadrock]

coconnor posted some good points:

Questions:

I'm not sure if I should discuss physiology with some one who obviously knows more about it than I do, but what is the advantage to an 800m runner if his fast twitch muscle fibres become more efficient at replenishing glycogen stores?
800m runners are unlikely to deplete glycogen stores.

I also see no advantage to an 800m runner if his fast twitch fibres become better at utilising fats.

Do the number of intermediary fast twitch fibres (type IIA) really increase? My (limited) understanding is that training will make these fibres act either more like fast twitch or more like slow twitch, but that the actual number of fibres does not increase. And even if they do, is this really an advantage if it is at the expense of fast twitch type IIB fibres?

Answer:

Well, what happens is that the ratio of fast twitch to slow twitch stays pretty much fixed genetically. However, within that ratio, the pure explosive IIB fibres can become oxidative/aerobic in nature, and far more glycolytic. So within a relatively fixed ratio, more of the fast twitch fibres take on a trainable aerobic and glycolytic capacity as opposed to a pure short-term (several seconds) explosive alactic creatine phosphate nature.(That capacity can be increased later very effectively with hill bounding drills).

You're absolutely correct in that there seems to be no obvious need to increase the ability to replenish glycogen stores. However, that's not why we do it. The fibres become far more efficient at hoarding glycogen, which is THE major fuel for glycolytic anaerobic running (ie: 300-600m flat out). When recovered, they can store MORE of the stuff, and when trained glycolytically, ACCESS it better, and because of the capillarization and oxidative activity, pay the metabolites back much quicker to the liver to recirculate.

As far as 800m runners being unlikely to deplete glycogen stores...well, yes, sort of. They don't deplete ALL of their glycogen stores, but a fast 800m will deplete a lot of glycogen in the IIA oxidative fast fibres used in that event, and if these stores can be replenished quicker and become more aerobic, even to the point of being able to use a few stored fats as a back up, then why not? In terms of getting through a bulk session of VO2 max work and then later glycolytic work, those glycolytic fibres' glycogen stores will take a fair old hammering.

That extended 5000/3000 pace interval workout early in the anaerobic prepartion uses glycogen primarily. The 800/400 pace-specific repetitions with ample long recovery later will also use lots of glycogen. So glycogen storeage is very important for an 800m runner for the specific race preparation phase.

Slow twitch fibres don't appear to take on fast twitch characteristics in any study yet done. However, the highly explosive IIB fibres, which are very low in capillarisation, very low in energy-producing mitochondria, and very low in oxidative enzymes,CAN change, and do, when forced to act by depletion in very long aerobic efforts.

IIB fibres are the ones that use mostly creatine phosphate, the easily-replenished intramuscular source of energy. They will only usually fire off with a major explosive effort, and a very high electromotive force generated along a very thick incoming nerve axon.

These babies are forced to adapt and change to the highly vascular, nearly-as-powerful, highly oxidative IIA fibres, also known as IIdX, or FOG (fast oxidative glycolytic) when recruited to maintain muscle tension, as the slow twitch fibres eventually do tire and use up blood glucose and locally stored glycogen.

So according to Costill's studies, at the point where a runner starts to feel heavy and tired in his legs on an endurance effort, his slow twitch fibres are starting to get sick of all the work and are suffering neuromuscular fatigue from all the little motor units firing off endlessly. Their local stores of glycogen are used up. Blood glucose is getting pretty ratty too.

So in come the heavier artillery to maintain muscle tension. The IIA fibres are almost completely unused until now, and have their own local stores of glycogen. These fibres and their glycogen stores get used up now.. and if we try to run further still, then we recruit the big boys,the IIB, with their own intact glycogen stores (some) but mostly intramuscular creatine phosphate. These are the ones that go berserk when 4 hour marathoners come back from the dead in the last 100m of the Melbourne marathon to sprint their vomit over the time-keepers and fellow runners.

This sequential use of muscle fibres according to loading is called the size principle. I don't know what we call the marathoner's sprint... I'll leave it to cool runners to name this phenomenon.

As far as an 800m runner using fats...it's a great advantage for training. As his aerobic levels rise, at any given aerobic speed his heart rate is lower, and he preferentially uses fats more and more for aerobic running as he gets more efficient. If he's using abundant fats for his aerobic running...then...guess what...he's NOT using his precious intramuscular glycogen stores, which are limited and hard-won. So he's saving them for important races and hard anaerobic training sessions where he can really do the job properly before recovering aerobically.

Very very good questions. I'm impressed. This is an intellectually advanced group of bloggers.

Hope I answered what you want to know.If not, keep firing the questions in.