31 replies to this topic

[Gallop]

Hi I have run a few 10K's and 5K's this year and I just can't seem to beat my pb. It's 37 mins for 10k and 17 mins 24 for 5K.

I usually just do heaps of jogging and I enter the occasional race.

Are there any good coaches in Sydney that can help me get faster? I live near the city.

Or do you have some advice you could give me?

Thanks for any help you can offer. I don't know what to do.

[lactatehead]

Gallop,
You sound like you could be a decent runner with those times under your belt and only a bit of jogging.
You should look for a club in your area that competes in Athletics NSW and you`ll get all the advice and coaching that you need.
Go to ANSW`s website and check out the clubs near you.
Best of luck!

[HillsAths1]

I guess this begs the obvious question as to when you did your best? Was it when you were doing 80km a week and speedwork or is it a recent PB with similar training?
If it was in the recent past and you are still doing the same sort of training then you need to look at either changing your training(more,less,quality)
The best method would be to find a group of similar runners(same goals) and train with them as mentioned before there are many good coaches in Syd, research about the different ones and see if they suit you(a walks coach or throws coach is not much use to you). The ANSW site is a good place to start. If in the Hills see www.hillsathletics.com

[Gallop]

Thanks lactatehead.

I will try that and make some calls.

I actually do alot of jogging. Sometimes twice a day. Does anyone have any advice on some other kind of training I could do which would make me faster?

I have got to a point where my times have stopped improving.

Thanks again,

Gallop.

[Spot]

Hey Gallop,

If you've gotten that far by just running then you need to get into intervals, hill sprints, tempo runs, long runs and other torture devices designed to take you to the next level.

A coach can put a plan together for you.  Or there are some good books around too.  And some good free reading at  http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/.

An online coach can work well too.

•

[Colin]

quote:

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Originally posted by Gallop:
I actually do alot of jogging. Sometimes twice a day.

---

It could be a case of one man's jogging = another man's running. My guess is that you are already 'jogging' at about 4min/km in training.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gallop:
Does anyone have any advice on some other kind of training I could do which would make me faster?

---

If you already have a good base of mileage then mix it up by introducing speed, easy, longer runs and REST.

I'm a fan of developing basic speed through shorter reps (say 200-600m), and endurance speed with longer intervals (say 1000 to 2000). Be flexible. Then also include tempo (or what I used to call FCR's -fast continuous runs- in my day) or race efforts/time trials etc.
Doing sections of your run at race pace also helps (specificity) your running economy.

Most importantly, find the mix of training that you enjoy doing and works for you. That way you will keep doing it, but look after yourself and learn from what injures you. Make sense?   :)  

IMHO, it is all good and well doing a proscribed schedule, but not very good if you are going to dislike it and be inconsistent, or become injured.

cheers   :)

[Rudolf]

Gallop, see we are all working hard, just to get close to Your times.
So, You'v got it all wrong !
You should be not asking us for advice, but You should give us one, how to get to Your level on jogging only.
Your training principle is one of those I like.

[Gallop]

Thanks Spot, Colin and Rudolf.

Wow that's alot of stuff to think about. I'm not sure how to put all that together.

I usually just get out there and run. I love it. I love the scenery. I love seeing how far I can go. But my race times have stopped improving.

There is a 24k run I like to do along the clifftops. It takes me about 1hr 45. I do that every morning before breakfast. It is great at this time of the year. I also run home from work which takes me about 50 minutes, but sometimes I like to take the scenic way home and this streches out to about 85 minutes.

So about every second day I get in about 3 hours of jogging. And every other day about 2hrs 35.

I've been doing this for about 18 months. My friend at work told me that I could get some tips off this website.

My pbs were done recently, but I've run nearly exactly the same time for 10k and 5k every time that I go in a fun run this year.

Thanks again for your help,

Gallop.

[Gallop]

P.S. do you have any more tips for me?

[Ultraphil]

If you cant go faster - consider going longer!

VTIC!

[ingrid]

Hi Gallop,
I  think you need to be more focused on the distances you want to PB in.
Your training seems more suited to marathon training than 5km or 10km. I'm certainly not an expert, but I think you might want to consider doing some track work to help improve those fast twitch fibres.
There are some good training websites, I have used the Gold Coast marathon website they have a training program for 10km which I thought was pretty good. I know there are others Hal Higdon etc.
- You could also measure out a 5km course and time trial it every month to see your progress. There are several CRs who do this 5km challenge, and post up their results here.
I also find running with someone of equal ability helps me to run faster. Whenever i run with my boyfriend, I really push myself, (I have a competitive personality). Just some thoughts... Good luck with it, the PBs you have are really good btw!!

[Rudolf]

Gallop,
Your jogging speed is 4:22 /km
and You do 7x24km = 168 kms at this speed
and additional 2x~11km and 3x~19km
total 247 km per week at the speed 4:22/km

You do more and faster than 90% or more runners here.
And 90% of runners doing marathons are nowhere near your training volume and intensity.

So Phil suggestion is worth considering :

race something longer, halfmarathon, marathon,
trail ultras, consider 100k and 12/24 hours races

As far as 10k PB :
pick one race, and take 2 weeks before very easy,
take some nonrunning days, cut Your joggs to 20-30 min and do them bit slower.

So You come to the 10 k race completely rested
with fresh legs.

Longterm, I would make some of the runns slower
and some even more slower and one of them longer.
Other times I would push the hills bit harder.

I would do one of rhe weekends days on bike instead of run, mountain bike with fat wide tyres
and ride the dirt and sand.

Also work on strenght with weights, niot only legs, but the core muscles, lower back, abs, around the hips etc, pilats or yoga.


Yoyur general training approach is exellent - to run slow - jog every day, twice a day and do it long enough 50 min - 2 hours, for many many months.
Jogging running speed is constantly increasing,
and after 18 months, You call 4:22/km jogging
because that is how it feels for You.
That is the idea to build strong aerobic base.

If You just make some slower and longer, add some strenght from weights and crosstraining,
we can have 100km representative very soon.

[Gallop]

Thanks Rudolf,

I will take your advice next time I have a race.

But I am certainly not going to run in any 100km race! Are you crazy? (I know you're not).

But thanks anyway. I just like doing 5ks and 10ks. I didn't think my training was a big deal. I just do it pretty easy and to me it's all very enjoyable. I never really push it very hard.

Maybe I'll try some of this speed and hills that people are suggesting.

Thanks again!!

Gallop.

[Lap dog]

Dear Rudolph
I'm busting my guts to run your daily distance once a week!!!! Your easy jogging is the equivalent of my flat out sprinting. I applaude you but of course have no advice to offer you, just thought I'd make you feel good!

[SlingRunner]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gallop:
So about every second day I get in about 3 hours of jogging. And every other day about 2hrs 35.

---

Gallop,

You are a living proof that Lydiard-esque training ( running long at strong, steady aerobic effort ) truly has its place in any runners' training programs.

I'm not in the same class as you. But my view is that your 10K race times development from doing purely aerobic runs is almost close to its maximum. It's now the time to incorporate some faster sessions such as 4x1600m @ 5K pace (3:25-3:30 min/km) and 6-8km @ 16K pace (3:45 min/km).

However, keep continue doing the regular aerobic runs im order to keep your aerobic efficiency. Just keep the VO2max & lactate tolerance sessions at ~10% of weekly mileage.

I also suggest you grab a copy of Daniels Running Formula, 2nd edition. It's full of physiological insights and proven training programs from 800m to marathon.

Thank you for sharing your training, which re-iterates my view that Lydiardian roots are still alive & kicking.

Edit:  My suggestion to start incorporating fast sessions is in-line with Mark Allen's personal experience. He said:
  
Over  time, however, you will get the maximum benefit possible from doing just aerobic training. At that point, after several months of seeing you pace get faster at your maximum aerobic heart rate, you will begin to slow down. This is the sign that if you want to continue to improve on your speed, it is time to go back to the high end interval anaerobic training one or two days/week.  But this time, your body will be able to handle it. Keep at the intervals and you will see your pace improve once again for a period. But just like the aerobic training, there is a limit to the benefit you will receive from anaerobic/carbohydrate training. At that point, you will see your speed start to slow down again. And that is the signal that it is time to switch back to a strict diet of aerobic/fat burning training.

[Rudolf]

Lap Dog,
hey that is missunderstanding.
That is not my running, it is Gallops running.
I just translated it from his description by calculating the speed and distances, so it is clear to everyone, what we are talking about.

I am sure You running more and faster than me,
I am just restarting after more than a decade off.
But hey I agree, I woulod like to have jogging speed at 4:22/km, long way to go.

Mona did (and perhaps still does) long run once a week 35 km in 2h30min.
Mona or his coach, knows very well that 2h30min is the best lenght for long runs for aerobic development. Mona run slow (about 1:15 /km slower than his marapace !!!). It just happens,
it was 35 km.
So copying 35k long run, is not correct, doing 2h30min is correct and in Your own slow speed = at least 1:15 slower per km, than your marapace.
Monas speed for this run was around 4:18/km

Gallop, you are running many hours a week at the same speed Mona did his long run.
That is why me and Phil are suggesting, go and try something longer, You are ready for it.

[Reggie]

A quick personal note that may be of interest:

I ran this years Melb Marathon a month ago after a 4 month training program of 60-65km/week, which incorporated 1 hill sprint or interval session each week, and 1 22km+ run.

Every Friday morning I would run a 7km loop from my house that I measured, and try to run a PB. Through my training the fastest time I ran was 28.30 - just couldn't get under the elusive 28min (4min/km).

Anyway, ran the marathon (3hrs28min) and then had 2 full weeks off to let my ITB (and brain) fully recover. I went back out last week to do my 7km run out of interest, and ran 27.59! Then this week I ran it in 27.19!

I thought I had lost a fair bit of fitness because my heart rate was higher than normal, turns out it was because I was running much faster than during training. Clearly my legs had really freshened up from the 2 weeks off.

So, maybe if you want to do a quick 10km soon (before the intervals or hillwork kicks in), try resting for a week or so before the race.

[RunningOnEmpty]

Reggie,
The benefits of a "freshen up" should never ever be understated!

[lactatehead]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gallop:
Does anyone have any advice on some other kind of training I could do which would make me faster?
[/QB]

---

Gallop, If you ask a question like that on CR you are likely to be swamped with contradictory advice. Every runner has a basket full of their own theories. The one coach and writer who stands out among all experts is the great Arthur Lydiard. I suggest you read one of his books and then take it from there.

[Rudolf]

Reggie, congratulations.
Your example is good one, and this is my explanation:

You did run very hard aerobic training session
for 3 and half hour at the maximum effort = marathon.
Muscle recovery is about 2 weeks, but more importantly in the case of such a hard run, the endocrine system recovery is minimum 21 days.

After that, You are stronger than before, You increased Your endurance, aerobic performance etc.
That is why You did PB after 3 weeks, and than significantly improved it after 4 weeks.

You were either smart or lucky, to let full 2 weeks of recovery and only run hard after 3 weeks

This principle is used by some american ultrarunners, and even outside of ultras, principle of hard long session, once every 3 weeks does exists, in between there is only recovery runs and cross training, after each 3-4 weeks You jump on higher level, but have to be mentaly strong not get into hard sessions in between.

[BOOF]

Gallop,
Interesting question?, and whilst I'm stuck here at work on a sat arvo I'll try to answer it as best I can, as the taught has crossed my mine from time to time over the years myself?

I guess its abit like trying to answer 'how long a piece of string' is....Boof has another one of his theorys to try & answer it, is based on any individuals physical limitation....once your been training seriously for a period of year or two or more you will soon work out what your limiations are, if you monitor the striders 10k results for example you notice the consistant top half of the field are rarely more than 30sec to 1 minute off the times each month give or take a couple of sec's....basically what I'm trying to say is once you reach a point where your running at 3.30-3.40 per kilometers at race pace is very VERY VERY hard/DIFFICULT to improve on that....not unless you have natural talent to be running at 3.00 - 3.20 in the first place, which means you probably weren't fit in the place.....that said, to further improve is possible all bit it in slight amounts which usuaully present a radical approach to alter training & diet and body composition/(weight) over length periods of time....a sarrifice presious few are willing to make, and can often lead to sickness & soreing off running all together...So my advice would be enjoy it & make the best of talent God has given you

regards
Boof

[Rudolf]

Gallop, I spent few hours reading ultra website from USA, and it gave me this idea :

Your weekly load is around 250 km and quit fast,
all in good tempo.

Ultra strategy for a lot of people seems to be :
do not run too much last few weeks before the ultra race, so You can do the whole weekly or fortnightly millage - kms in one race - 1 day.

In Your case, if You do not run for the whole week, You can enter 24 hour race and do 250 km and be just fine, than You take another week off.

See, You thought I am crazy to tell You to run 100k, but You are running 250k, just spread into few days.

And if You rest 3 weeks, than You are ready to run 6 day race.
See You in Colac 2006, just send Your entry in soon, around April.

[Gallop]

Thanks Rudolf. I will never race 100km or Colac.

But I have taken some of the advice. Today I did 10 x 200m in 28-31s on spongey grass track.

My luns were ok but the legs found it tough. Plus at the end I was dizzy and I felt like I was going to spew? Why did I feel that way?

I couldn't explain why to my girlfriend.

Anyway we'll see how I feel tomorrow.

Any more advice?

Boof I can get better I think.

Thanks,

Gallop.

[BOOF]

Onya Gallop more power to you then, must say your attitude reminds me of somebody we all know & love....enough with the girl power thingy & burning the bra Gremaine Greer style, just get out there and show us all how good you can possibly be!!! Just try avoiding blowing up in races in the process, pushin too hard too soon for those PB's easier said than done I know....least until your body gets used to running sub 3.30 k's at will  :P  

regards
Boof

[Gallop]

Thanks Boof,

What is your best time in the City to Surf?

Gallop.

[Rudolf]

I think I am going to enjoy reading this tread.

So from running at 4:22/km You suddenly run at
2:20-2:35 pace. What for ??????????

Are You going to run 10 km in 25 minutes this season?

Or is there any other mysterious reason for that session ?
You can certainly spend the time with Your girlfriend in more interesting way.

[Gallop]

quote:

---

Originally posted by Colin:
  

I'm a fan of developing basic speed through shorter reps (say 200-600m), and endurance speed with longer intervals (say 1000 to 2000). Be flexible. Then also include tempo (or what I used to call FCR's -fast continuous runs- in my day) or race efforts/time trials etc.
Doing sections of your run at race pace also helps (specificity) your running economy.

---

Hi Rudolf,

Look above. Colin suggested trying some shorter reps of 200-600 to develop speed.

So I gave it a try.

I might try some 800m reps tonight?

Gallop.

P.S.

My girlfriend didn't do the session. She just asked me later on why I felt like  I wanted to spew.

I couldn't physilogically give the reason why? I don't know why I felt that way?

Gallop.

[BOOF]

Gallop,
52 1/2 for the record....but I blew up something shocking at the top of HBH...what didn't help was this absolute sort ran past with shorts that looked like they been painted on  :D  ...kinda went all pear shaped from then on  :)  ....ever tried running with 3 legs, blood just wasn't pumping to the right parts of the body?

regards
Boof

[Rudolf]

I know she did not, I was questioning Your choice

You have to consult with Your advisor the intended speed for 200s.

Why You did feel physicaly that way ?

You are used to aerobic healthy running.
You did anaerobic kamikadze suicide session.
Body did not like it, and It told You so.
You can listen to It or not.
The body has the real inteligence.

My view is, that if You wanna run for 10k speed, it needs to be only marginaly faster, than Your 10k PB speed. Say 10 sec/km faster, till You can comfortably survive say 10x1km at that speed with few minutes recovery. Once a week.
Till Your next race, witch You can run rested tapering down.
Get new PB, calculate the new min/km speed, and start doing 10 sec faster than that, first about 4 reps and keep adding 1 each week. Get new PB recalculate the speed, 10 sec faster and repeat.

Some say the lenght of intervals is better 1200 -
1600 m and I accept that. The total lengt of reps
should stay at 10k or less, so You obviously could not do 10x1600m.

If You do 200s, than only about 10-15sec faster than Your min/km 10km speed, which is in Your case 44sec for 200m,so Yout training 200s would be 41-42 sec
This session is done continuosly, 200m in 42 sec
jog slowly 200m and again 200m in 42 sec and jog 200m

That was the basic principle of Zatopek training.
Run continuosly around the track, with 200s or 400s at the racing speed or bit faster.

[Gallop]

quote:

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Originally posted by BOOF:
Gallop,
52 1/2 for the record....but I blew up something shocking at the top of HBH...what didn't help was this absolute sort ran past with shorts that looked like they been painted on    :D    ...kinda went all pear shaped from then on    :)    ....ever tried running with 3 legs, blood just wasn't pumping to the right parts of the body?

regards
Boof

---

3 legs.... sounds like you had too much aerodynamic drag happening there Boof for the last 1/2 of the race.

So that would've been worth at least a sub 50    :D  

I'm fairly fast but not as fast as you. Somewhere between you and 60 mins...

Gallop.

[Rudolf]

BOOF,
I am not sure if I am supposed to feel sorry or to feel envy, re Your experience.

There is an exelent training run, to prepare You for this -
4 dec - Echuca nude run, run in the nudist camp.
8 km

[Gallop]

You may need some strapping Boof!

And I'm not volunteering for the role of strapper there Boof.

Gets hot out there in Dec. You might also need some sunscreen.   :)  

Gallop.