39 replies to this topic

[danieljohngreen]

Hi everyone

For anyone interested, we have taken a large number of images of participants from the Canberra marathon. There is a free preview for everyone and you are able to purchase high resolution copies of the images for just $12.

We are going to be venturing more into race photography over the next 12 months to give people a cheaper alternative for purchasing race photos and thanks to Blue Elephant Photography for taking these images in Canberra.

Have a look at www.runforyourlife.com.au and follow the links.

Disclaimer: Not affiliated with Cundy Sports
Management or Marathon Photos, etc

Regards
Greeny

[sfGnome]

Daniel,

I may be slower than others, but it took me a long time to find the photos because I was looking in the shop. Maybe a link from there might be useful... Also when I found them, I didn't realise that the race number was part of the file name, so I spent a long time squinting at the thumbnails  :unsure:

(good photos though)

[Grey beard]

Fortunately I seem to have escaped this time!  Possibly because I got rid of the cap after about 25 kms.

[danieljohngreen]

yeah sorry, I should have mentioned that the race numbers were part of the file name and thus they are pretty much in order of race number, with the female competitors found after the males.

Regards
Greeny

[Hamburglar]

I like this one of Uncle Dave

[Bandanna]

...and this one of  Action, acknowledging the rapturous applause of the crowd.

[Morley]

Sorry about changing the focus of the post but how do you guys get the photos onto the thread? I have 199 photos of the R4TKids but have no idea how to share some of them with other CRs.

Great effort on Canberra Marathon by the way.

[sfGnome]

quote:

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Originally posted by Morley:
...but how do you guys get the photos onto the thread? I have 199 photos of the R4TKids but have no idea how to share some of them with other CRs.

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Go  here  and look at the instructions across the top of the page. Also there are some instructions  here. Good luck  :)

[Morley]

Thanks  :)  . I'll give it a go.

[Eagle]

Greeny:
Congratulations on another effort to help the runners and to enter into an apparent monoply part of the running scene. You are certainly one who seesa problem and then takles it looking for a better solution. I hope the runners support you with their wallets - I will be.  B)

[Rampant]

danieljohngreen
Thanks for the heads up on the photos.
is there anyway we can download these for free ??
After looking at them, not sure if I would pay 12 bucks, not saying they are bad, but, well they aren't exactly worth the 12 either.

I am doing the Syd Half, so hopefully I can give you a yell and you can get us ( my wife and I ) there as well if shooting.

Any assistance would be appreciated.

Rampant.

[Eagle]

Rampant:
I rarely disagree directly with another poster but ... give Greeny a go you want the photo for free and then you put you hand up for a 'personalised' photo in amongst 5000 odd runners.

Greeny puts in a huge effort supporting and prompoting running and then to expect something from him for free is akin to killing the golen Goose. His prices are more than reasonable and the offer is there buy or don't buy.  :rolleyes:

[Rampant]

Hey Eagle
Couldn't agree with you more, it's just that coming from a MTB background I am used to good photos from events I have spent months training for, and putting in the time and the effort.

I am used to paying for good photos, and I will continue to do so.

Old saying, "you get what you pay" for I suppose.

A great memory is better than a crap photo.

Hopefully Blue Elephant AREN'T the only photographers at my next big venture... next years 6ft track.

See you out on the tracks

Rampant

[Eagle]

Rampant:
Maybe the people Greeny used were new at it. My photo was also a little disappointing as the sun was at my back and so I am in shadows. Maybe they jusst need more experince and then perhaps their photos will be great value for money.

I agree it is disaapoinying not have a great photo for a great memory of a special event. Hope you get the photo you want at the half.

By the way welcome to Coolrunning and to your first posts. See you around.  B)

[Jogger]

I have been advised that Marathon-Photos have exclusive rights to photo sales at the Canberra Marathon and we will take whatever action is necessary to protect those rights. and therefore there is some degree of displeasure by both Canberra Marathon and Marathon-Photos that R4YL is selling photos from that event.

CoolRunning does not want to get involved with any side of any arguments, although I half suspect that even the existance of this thread will muddy the waters - it can be seen as supporting the R4YL move. It's not supporting it, CoolRunning is the messenger not the message.

In the past we have deleted threads such as this outright when asked (but we have not been asked yet), but I suspect if we delete this thread then people can talk about the thread that got deleted, and I am definitely against wholesale censorship.

This very same issue has occurred previously in relation to Six Foot Track Marathon, R4YL and Marathon-Photos. On a personal level, I hate arguments/ disagreements and its worse as I have some level of personal/ professional relationship with all parties concerned.

What's the point of this post ?
(a) to advise ahead of time that this thread could be destined for deletion - CoolRunning takes care to act responsibly and where people have a real issue with items posted here we often put ourselves in their shoes and often delete posts.
(b) to pre-empt any moves by any party that suggest CoolRunning is taking sides in this particular issue.

[sfGnome]

Hmmm... Now this is an interesting concept. A whole bunch of people run along a public road and I take photos of them, but I can't sell copies of those photos to them because someone else told someone else that only they could.  :unsure:  

If the event in question was held in a private place such that to gain entry you had to agree to not take and sell photos (every concert I've ever been to has those type of restrictions), then fair enough, but I can't see how the Marathon Photos mob can legally enforce their claim in this instance. Any one of our running lawyers feel like giving us a quick lesson??

[ladyjove]

quote:

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Originally posted by sfGnome:
If the event in question was held in a private place such that to gain entry you had to agree to not take and sell photos (every concert I've ever been to has those type of restrictions), then fair enough...

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The way I see it is it is sort-of a private place. The race organisers would have paid police/council etc. for the exclusive use of the roads for the marathon, therefore it is like they are "hiring" the roads. The roads are not really public property whilst the marathon is running, they are reserved for the event. Marathon-photos; being sponsors; would have contributed toward the cost of the event and in return get exclusive rights to sell photos.

Difference to a concert is that it is impractical to fence off the entire course and create an entrance where people are told of conditions of taking and selling photographs - especially since people are allowed to spectate for free anyway. I am sure if it were not so impractical and expensive to fence off the whole course and inform photographers, it would be done.

Look on the bright side - you are allowed to take as many private photos as you like - many concerts you are not even allowed to do that.

I would be interested to know if under this arrangement a private photographer has rights to publish private photos of the marathon?

[Colin]

It is not a 'private place' and no amount of permission from authorities to run on the public roads make it a 'private place'.

You can take private photos for your own consumption, pay someone to take photos of you or  sell your photos to friends even if taken on a $10 disposable.

What IS the issue here is that morally as supporters of running a running website may be reluctant to be seen not supporting the commercial viability of a race.

That said, I am not of the school that believes a race should live or die by the support of its photographer.
The essentials, great race, good organistaion, great atmosphere etc should be enough for runners to support it.
And Canberra already fulfills those.

A website like CR could also argue that the race gets more support from the free publicity than damage that can e caused by a few privately sold photos.

However, if the market were to decide, it could make such decisions on reasons of quality , and maybe even whether they are willing to support where none of the proceeds makes its way to the race.

In my case it is clear. The photo is of a person that looks like my body bearing my number, but my face is indistiguishable because of the contrast not being done professionally.

If the photo was of better quality than the official one, I would think that I spent enough for the privilege of running on the weekend to bother about whether $2 goes to the race organiser.

[danieljohngreen]

Not much time to write a reply here, so I will make it short and to the point.

A) Marathon Photos and the organisers of the Canberra marathon can **** my ****. Just over a year ago they essentially dared me to try and start doing race photography and yet they love to complain about it when it happens. After the way I was treated at the marathon, they deserve every bit of it.

B) We are doing it to provide a better value option to runners. You get the chance to download a low res image without watermarks etc for free and can buy the full res if you want to, the choice is yours, plain and simple. Our photographs will get the hang of photographing races and the images will improve.

C) If we are not allowed to sell these images, ie. if legal action is taken against us, I will personally pay for photographers to take images of every competitor at every race marathon photos is involved with and I will give them away for nothing. I will continue to do this until something changes.

D) Kevin, if this thread is deleted you are taking sides and that is the side of Marathon Photos and Canberra Marathon.

Regards
Greeny

[Rock Doctor]

quote:

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C) If we are not allowed to sell these images, ie. if legal action is taken against us, I will personally pay for photographers to take images of every competitor at every race marathon photos is involved with and I will give them away for nothing. I will continue to do this until something changes.

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Game on

[Eagle]

I would like to hear Marathon-Photos and the Canberra Marathon's position and will resrve a final opinion until then. If there is no response that the failure to respond would be a factor to be taken into account.

At the moment it seems like Greeny's free enterprise against what appears to be an attempt at a monopoly by Marathon-Photos. It appers that the usual result of a monopoly is occuring with no competion on price quality etc all to the loss of the consumer.  B)

[Cato]

Kevin
It looks like you are caught between a rock and a hard place. I sympathise with your problem.

Daniel

Keep up the fight!

My father told me a long time ago (about 45 years):
"if you know you're right, then fight"

Good Luck, as there are a lot of other people who agree with you.

CATO

[Shell]

Just so you know Dan, I was actually pleased with the quality of my photos.

They were much better than the ones taken by marathon-photos and if I'm not banned from doing so, I will be buying.

Thanks

[Jogger]

On a personal note, with the absolute proliferation of cheap digital cameras, there is clearly a need for runners to post their own photos of the event on websites - - and it would be unreasonable for races or photo companies to object to this. CoolRunning has always encouraged runners to write about races and post their own photos and we won't be stopping any time soon (note : any photos posted to CoolRunning can be used by us for any purpose - I think our legal page says something like that)

I am not really sure whether the issue is with all photos (free AND sold) or whether its just that R4YL is selling them. I wonder if they were given away whether this would make any difference ?

Although activities like what happens on CoolRunning is not commercial in nature it is possible that this would impact how many pictures are sold by commercial agents.

It is an interesting issue and certainly very relvant now that more and more races are having photo services - so am sure that the issues needs to be discussed (flogged to death in the usual CR way), so I would not like to delete it.

Kevin, if this thread is deleted you are taking sides and that is the side of Marathon Photos and Canberra Marathon.

The corrollary is that if we leave the thread here it is not necessarily a vote of support for R4YL either.

[Eagle]

Kevin:
I would have though Coolrunning was neutral to the outcome and merely providing the forum for debate. I don't think either party can infer support or opposition to their position merely because a place for debate is provided.   B)

[Damany]

quote:

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Originally posted by Colin:

What IS the issue here is that morally as supporters of running a running website may be reluctant to be seen not supporting the commercial viability of a race.

That said, I am not of the school that believes a race should live or die by the support of its photographer.
The essentials, great race, good organistaion, great atmosphere etc should be enough for runners to support it.
And Canberra already fulfills those.

---

I think Colin gets at the big issue right here. Whether or not it is a public event, the organiser can sell the exclusivity of the race photo arrangement at a premium. Without that exclusivity, there is no guarantee that Marathon-Photo or any other photo provider will come to the party. This means less money for race organisers and probable increased race fees for participants.

While arguments about competition are valid in markets that are robust with high margins, anecdotal evidence suggests that the market is weak and is constantly being undermined by increased staging costs. I remember a 6 Foot Track budget post by Kevin that suggests this anecdotal evidence is close to the truth of the matter.

While a race quality, organisation and atmosphere are all essential to get the punters to the start line, the harder it becomes for organisers, the more these things will suffer.  

Why anyone would want to further jeopardise an existing and excellently run race to save a couple of bob on race photos is beyond me.

Many races have folded in the last five years. Why make it harder for the Canberra Marathon organisers to put a show on, in an already tough market?

And the point that Greeny makes about MP challenging him to get up and do it is a good point insofar as it applies to MP, but there are other parties involved (ie. Dave Cundy and co.) who will suffer from this action.

[Shell]

CM can only give exclusive rights to M-P over what CM actually has ownership of. The streets are public places and they cannot stop people from taking photos in public.

But can they stop someone else from profiteering from their event? If a photographer takes a photo of an event and sells it to a paper do they have to have authority from the organiser? What about photographers taking photos of celebrity weddings from helicopters? Surely they all don't get permission!  

What M-P is getting for their money is the promotion by CM as "official race photographer" and the opportunity to position themselves in places that non-event photographers can't - like right behind the finishing line so they can get the great phtos with the time in them. They also are the only ones who can sell the commemorative photo with the CM banner on it.

It is an interesting legal question that is worth some debate

[Rampant]

Wow, as a newcomer, I wasn't aware this was such a pre-discussed issue.
I actually feel a little uneasy how this has evoloved.

I will support any decision made by the guy who is putting his butt on the line every time he wakes in the morning... the race organiser.

He is the one I will be supporting, as I cannot imagine the guts it takes to put on a huge event, sponsors included, then try and convince all and sundry to do it all again the next year.
Only by our support of these guys/gals will the events keep happening.

Event Organisers ... you rule !!
I will be guided by your choices and support those that support your races.

rampant

[Vurt]

enough with the legal mumbo jumbo. What we need is a thunderdome. Two men enter one man leaves.

[Eagle]

I think Shell has raised some interesting points.

Also what is it that MP is protecting - their right to be designated as the Offical Photographer for the event - Greeny does not appear to be challenging that - it appears he simply wants to be able to take photos of an event and distrubute them how he considers appropriate.  B)

[Colin]

Another issue is that there are already hundreds of free photos on the CR gallery that is direct competition to MP and impact on how much they would be selling. It appears this is not a problem as no one is trying to make money. Or at least we haven't heard MP, CM or Kevin complaining about it.

So the only difference to the R4YL photos is that this is a commercial venture.

Now, hypothetically, if all the other photo takers with photos in the gallery instead started a thread advertising their photos for a fee, to the displeasure of MP, CM--would that be allowed by Kevin?

If the answer is no, then that should also be the case for this thread.

[yeti]

quote:

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Originally posted by sfGnome:
Hmmm... Now this is an interesting concept. A whole bunch of people run along a public road and I take photos of them, but I can't sell copies of those photos to them because someone else told someone else that only they could.   :unsure:  

....
Any one of our running lawyers feel like giving us a quick lesson??

---

I am not a lawyer, but as far as I understand the legal situation, Marathon Photos ™ are not in any position to prevent anyone to sell photos of the event (public space and so on...), however (at least theoretically), the runners in the photos probably could - after all I don't think the fine print on the entry form (agreeing to the use of pictures taken during the race and so on) covers publications not authorised by the race organizers.

Yeti

[KevinCassidy]

I have a feeling that Tamsyn v Jana will have nothing on this.

Lots of grey for the lawyers to sort out

[TRAVY]

quote:

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Originally posted by KevinTiller:
I have been advised that Marathon-Photos have exclusive rights to photo sales at the Canberra Marathon and we will take whatever action is necessary to protect those rights. and therefore there is some degree of displeasure by both Canberra Marathon and Marathon-Photos that R4YL is selling photos from that event.

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I think a similar thing happened with last years Canberra marathon. With someone taking photos and then trying to sell them through coolrunning . They did not get a lot of support from members.

[Dazza K]

I remember distinctly discussing MP with Kevin at the CR drinks post SFT this year.  During this discussion I vented to Kevin my absolute disgust in this company.

I'll let Kevin tell you but just as a prompt:
How much money did MP contribute to SFT?
As well as their arguments over the photos offered by R4YL, did they or did they not complain about the photos on CR?  What else did they want done?

I remember quite distinctly the discussion with Kevin so will allow him to elaborate further.

In regards to why this company disgust me, have you ever tried to contact them?

As a result of CM2005, where I did the 50, I ordered and received one of their products which showed me the race, my effort, where I was in comparison the Magnus when he finished etc. but no mention of the 50?   I sent them an email to enquire if there was something that had that information - result - nothing, nadda, zip, sweet FA.

I then approached them at their stand at GC2005 to discuss this.  They said they would look into it - yeh right!  I sent them another email and referred to this and actually gave them the guys name.  Result - go on have a guess.  Yep Nothing again.

After SFT this year, I found there were no photos of me so I searched the unidentified ones.  Yep there was one of crossing the line so I tried to contact MP to tell them so that I could order one of their products with that photo.  Something you can't do unless that is identified as you.  Net result, no response after 3 weeks.  

What did I do?  Well, I sent them a very graphic email and complained - no response.

As a result, I refuse to ever buy anything from them again.  

I welcome the competition from R4YL, after all if you have a look at the photos from MM2005, there was an option of ordeering a photo of you as the R4YL cover and as Aust Champion.

I have no time for any company that purports to offer the services but whenever queried, don't respond.

I know from talking to Kevin that whenever he conacted them, they came straight back to him.  Maybe that has something to do with his position as RD for SFT?   :rolleyes:  

Too bad if you're just a little person.

So come on Kev, what do you remember of our conversation?

Cheers!

[Colin]

Wouldn't it be much simpler for R4YL to do what everybody else is doing and put the photos in the CR gallery?

Runners can then (as they do now with others) email them for a copy, and they can then haggle about price.

In my case I wouldn't bother this time because the photos are of a very low quality compared to what I have already got  for free  from  very kind CRs  (TA & SFG).

After all, everybody else would not be allowed to start a thread that commercially flogs their photos, or would they?  :rolleyes:  

To respond to DG's post.

A)   CM obviously is protecting its exclusive arrangement with MP
B)   Depends on what is perception of 'better value'. Its certainly cheaper, but lower quality on most I have looked at, and mostly from the one spot, and one option.
C)   Free--yes, thats what everybody else on CR is offerring.
D)    Well, everybody else has to put theirs in a gallery.

cheers  :)

[errorfilenotfound]

In R4YL's defence, they are not really offering photos to the general public - it is a private ofering to their subscribers.At $12 a photo, by the time you count the cost of the photo, the packaging, the postage and the cost to do all the work, R4YL is not making any money on them - its a service to their runners, and the runners are paying the actual cost of the photo.

If CR doesn't post the photos then there is nothing to stop anyone else doing the same. Canberra and Marathon Photos will then be seen to be like the record industry in suing everyone with an mp3 player. Digital photos are here to stay and it will be a long year in court for them to sue everyone. People will set up anonymous websites and post the photos. there ain't nothing you can do about it.

Marathon-Photos offer a service to get good print photos in a variety of styles but they don't have a monpoloy on eveything photographic.

[Colin]

quote:

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Originally posted by soyboy:
If CR doesn't post the photos then there is nothing to stop anyone else doing the same.

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OK, just wanted to check whether anyone else could do it as well--i.e. offer commercial photos via free advertising on CR.
The issue then is merely moral, (using your analogy) just like a record industry beneficiary undermining his own industry by buying/selling copies of CD's via a record industry supporting website.

  

quote:

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Originally posted by soyboy:
In R4YL's defence, they are not really offering photos to the general public - it is a private ofering to their subscribers.

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There are photos of many non-subscribers, myself included.

  

quote:

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Originally posted by soyboy:
At $12 a photo, by the time you count the cost of the photo, the packaging, the postage and the cost to do all the work, R4YL is not making any money on them - its a service to their runners, and the runners are paying the actual cost of the photo.

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:unsure:   NO, not so. This is what R4YL actually say:    

quote:

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The photo/s will be emailed to you in a very high resolution .jpg format.

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The same as what I have got for free this time , and many other times, from CR's. So again, nothing to stop them doing what other CR's are doing.    :rolleyes:    

  

quote:

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Originally posted by soyboy:
Marathon-Photos offer a service to get good print photos in a variety of styles but they don't have a monpoloy on eveything photographic.

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Always agreed on this. They pay for the endorsement and the prime positions esp finish line, and therefore will always have an advantage.

Ultimately what will make it an issue or non-issue is the quality.

So far MP will give you 'good print photos ' but R4YL will email (me) an image with worse contrast and lighting than I have already got from others.

[danieljohngreen]

Colin,

As always you are spot on and straight to the point. I will give you a brief explanation of why we are not just publishing them in the CR gallery for free. In the future we would hope to have numerous professional photographers shooting races throughout Australia. Currently we are working with Blue Elephant as this race photography side of things gets off the ground, but would happily hear from anyone else who would like to be involved 'shooting' other events for us. The situation is that half of the $12 (ie. $6) from each sale goes to the photographer and the other $6 will go towards the cost of paying for the webspace, putting the images up and emailing the images to people who want to buy them. Thus as we want to make it more attractive for people to come and take photo's of runners at races and this way if people are skilled photographers and want to earn a bit of extra cash on the weekend by shooting an event, than great.

In regards to your opinion of the quality of the images from Canberra, this is something that will improve over time and as we get more photographers on board the options of photo's available will also increase.

But once again, it is simply a service that we trying to provide for the runners. Anyone can do the math, we are not going to be making money from this at $12 an image, we will barely break even. We would have to sell more than 10,000 images a year before it was even close to being profitable & we know that that is a long way off. But if we offer another product, just like with the magazine R4YL, we give runners out their a choice. Nothing wrong with a bit of competition in any market place, always better for the consumer.

Regards
Greeny

[blkbox]

quote:

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Originally posted by danieljohngreen:
  Nothing wrong with a bit of competition in any market place, always better for the consumer.

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Well said !