John Landy and his bricks Options

[Digger]

Colac,

Where is this thread going?

Are you trying to tell us that you are 61 years young, and you recently ran 5-01 for 1 Mile, and now you want to run a sub-5min mile, and you want either our advice or encouragement, or have I missed something!

If you want encouragement, we have lots of that, this whole website is full of encouragement, in fact if you are going to do another attempt at Sub-5mins, we can probably organise Pacers and a cheer squad.
Note: Landy didn't believe in Pacers, but Bannister did.
If its advice you want, I (we), would need to see you training diary for the 3 to 4 months prior to you running the 5-01.

But lets get some real enthusiasm going, why don't we have a cool running challenge to see who can run a mile in what time before the end of the year! (1 mile approx=4 laps of a 400metre track)

[Colac]

Quite simple:

Are bricks holding us back from "mental break throughs" ?

Landy made an incredible jump in performance once Bannister broke the brick wall.

[Digger]

Of course they are!
Our "elite" runners now earn too much money for too little effort(with one or two notable exceptions).
They are happy with "solid good performances" so as to maintain their funding etc, rather than put everything on the line for glorious victory, which may end in catastropic failure which may result in funding or sponsorship loss if too many "fool hardy runs" are attempted in a row.
It not a coincidence the as the $ became more prominant in running, that Australian World class performances diminished, only to be replaced by "solid performances"
The glory days of the 1950's, 60's and 70's have gone.
The reason the African runners dominant has nothing to do altitude, genes, environment or what ever other reason the experts give.
The simple fact is if they don't win they STARVE and so do their families, but if our runners risk all to win, but fail, they have to get a real job like the rest of us.
At the moment we only have Mottram, but if in the last 10 to 15 years if all of the so called "Elite" had have had Mangus's approach to racing, we would be a lot more prominant.

I don't think Mangus ever went to bed wondering "what if"

[Sportsman]

It sounds so easy. When's your next WR attempt?

[Res Ipsa Loquitu...]

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"...Our "elite" runners now earn too much money for too little effort(with one or two notable exceptions)..."
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Which of our elite athletes do you consider fall into the too much money for too little effort category?

[Digger]

Are the fish are biting, maybe we should rename this thread "what ever happen to Australian Running Dominance"

Sportsman-I was never blessed with enough talent to run a world record(or even to be Australian class), but I do personally
6world class runners, 3 of whom have created world bests (3000metre to Marathon), so I know what it takes.

RIL-Its late Friday night and we don't need the moderator to remind us of the Liable laws of this country.
To answer your question, just compare the times of Australian Runners of the 60's to those of the runners of the 90's and 00's, then consider the quality of the running tracks and shoes, as well as the advances in training and sports medicine. while at the same time remembering that the runners of the 60's worked a 40hour week, and your question is answered.
It took 33 years for an Australian to break Clarkes record, and now only 2 Australians have run faster.(I think).
Only 2 Australians have runner faster over the Marathon than Clayton.
Only 2 Australians(I think) have run faster than Jenny Orr over 1500metres, and it took 25 years to reach her time.(If you have got to ask who Jenny Orr is, don't repond to this thread).
You should also compare Australia's T & F Medals at the Olympics 1948 to 1968, to our record 1972 to 2004, then consider our population base at the time.

The biggest indictment on the Australian runners of today is the fact that Moneggetti still keeps on threatening to win.(No he is NOT in my under achiever category), but the fact that Australian "elite runners" struggle to beat him, and B & C grade African runners (see C2S 2004), can strongly supports my position.

[Colac]

From Tim Noakes "Running your best".

By April 1954, Australia's top miler of the fifties, John Landy had run a mile in 4.03 on six occasions, but he said the four minute mile:

"is a brick wall, I won't attempt it again".

Weeks later on May 6, Sir Roger Bannister ran the mile in 3.59.4, off a final lap of 58.9.

6 weeks later, John Landy, possibly realising that the brick wall was in his mind, ran a stunning 3.58 !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Australia was robbed of the world's first 4 minute mile, because Landy had believed it wasn't possible.

Australia could be the first country to run a sub 2-hour marathon, but at the moment we have too many athletes who believe it is not possible - I call them "dream stealers" - they stand in the way of progress. We don't need this quicksand negativity.

Kiwi Runner, John Walker was first to show the world that a sub 3.50 mile was possible, when he ran 3.49.4 at Gateshead to top Bayi's 3.51.

I wonder who will run the first sub 3.40 mile ?

When we look at the 200m record, it is possible to expand our thinking to believe that a 3.40 mile is possible right now.

Is a brick wall holding Colac back from breaking the 5 minute mile at 61 ? It seems so. Less than a second to go. Now that's not a big ask, is it ?

Is Colac stuck in the same mode as John Landy ?

Colac has carried 43 kgs of concrete powder for 89 kms on tough hills recently - is slow stuff going to make him fast - or he is too scared to get out there and do the fast stuff ?

What about other Coolrunners ? Are "John Landy bricks" in the mind holding them back from pbs they don't realise are there for the taking ?

NO MORE TRAINING - JUST DO IT - YOU HAVE THE ABILITY - JUST BELIEF IN THE FORCE - KICK THAT BUTT !!!!! NO MORE EXCUSES, YOU CAN DO IT NOW 11

[Res Ipsa Loquitu...]

Digger,

Given that I do know who Ms Orr is I can only assume that I have your kind permission to respond to this thread.

I cannot think of too many track and field athletes in this country drawing any significant income from the sport (although many may, as we all do, bemoan simply not receiving enough). Accordingly, I attribute your reluctance to identify which elite runners are making too much money as arising from something other than litigious concerns.

Leaving that aside, you present a number of interesting points.

As far as the Olympics are concerned, you are certainly correct in asserting that Australia’s medal tally in athletics during the period 1948 to 1968 (total of 27 medals) exceeded that during the period 1972 to 2004 (total of 17 medals).

However:

(i) Most of the medals won during the period 1948 to 1968 were awarded to Australian women athletes during a period where female Olympic participation by the rest of the world was low;

(ii) The number of nations competing during the period 1948 to 1968 were significantly less than during the period 1972 to 2004. As an example, at our most successful Olympics, being Melbourne in 1956, a total of only 72 nations competed compared with the 2000 Sydney Olympics where 199 nations participated. Simply, a nation is always likely to win more medals during a period of lower Olympic participation.

(iii) During the perceived glory of Australian 1950s running, the African continent had effectively no presence at all in track and field.

(iv) During the 1970s and 1980s the state-drug-sponsored German Democratic Republic became an athletics powerhouse, scooping many championship medals and perverting the current record books with times that are likely to be never beaten (see Marita Koch’s 400 metre record set right here in Oz).

(v) Whilst our population base, as you identify, has indeed increased, so has that of most other nations. Furthermore, since the 1960s, the popularity of other sports amongst Australian youth has increased (witness: basketball, soccer), negating somewhat the available pool of increased sporting talent attributable to population increases. On the other hand, as far as East African youth are concerned, there is little besides soccer and running for the active youngster to participate in.

When analysing times achieved, it is important not to get too carried away with those of athletic freaks (and I do not intend to use the term disparagingly). Instead, one must compare average times of runners, say, during the 1960s to their modern day equivalent when attempting to assess whether improvements have been made.

To focus on the freaks such as Messrs Elliott, Clarke, and Clayton makes about as much sense as bemoaning the state of British 800 metre running because nobody has beaten Sebastian Coe’s national record for 24 years, or that of 1500 metre running as a consequence of Steve Cram’s national record remaining unbroken for 20 years.

In fact, when you factor in your ‘improvement in tracks, shoes, sports medicine, and training’ argument, some Australian freaks may even be guilty of venturing into your scare-quote “elite” earning-too-much-money category.

For instance, Deek’s marathon PB beat that of Derek Clayton by only 42 seconds, despite Deek practically living at the Institute of Sport during the 1980s and having the advantage of various sponsorship deals. Moneghetti, who you don’t put in an “under-achiever category”, was an even poorer improvement over Clayton, being only 17 seconds faster despite all the assistance that Nike-sponsored technology and Mars-Bar-fuelled-funding can bring.

In fact, if you factor in your ‘improvement in tracks, shoes, sports medicine, and training’ argument, Australian freaks of the past take the lustre off current superstar foreign freaks. For instance, given the accepted 1 second per lap advantage that current tracks have over their cinder counterparts (and the lesser advantages attributable to better spike technology and advances in certain conditioning theory), Herb Elliott makes Hicham El Guerrouj look like a try-hard cry-baby over 1500m.

The reason why one must discount the freaks (including Coe and Cram if you’re looking at the British situation) is because their times remain competitive even today.

For instance, Clayton’s 2:08 would still win most city marathons today (and all championship marathons) whilst Elliott’s win in the 1500m at Rome in 1960 was run in a time that would have seen him medal in many of the major championships of the last 20 years.

When one does look at the Australian men’s all time top 30 list you find that:

(i) in the 1500m, no athlete pre 1970 (aside from Herb Elliott) makes it.

(ii) in the 5000m, no athlete pre 1970 (aside from Ron Clarke) makes it.

(iii) in the 10,000m, no athlete pre 1970 (aside from Ron Clarke) makes it.

(iv) in the marathon, no athlete pre 1970 (aside from Derek Clayton) makes it.

If everybody was running glorious times in the 1950s and 1960s one would expect to see them all over the lists. Simply,you don’t.

(BTW – 6 women have beaten Jenny Orr’s time. Nevertheless, Jenny’s time was so good that it would still see her make the semi finals – being the best 24 in the world - of most major championships conducted in the last 10 years)

There certainly are problems with Australian athletics, one of which is the low participation rate which I have discussed in another thread. As I have posted elsewhere, there are only 239 registered under 18 male athletes in Victoria: if you think Australia should be a running power out of such a base then I’ve got prime with-a-view lunar land to sell you. Feel free to add to that thread – I won’t even set any knowledge prerequisites for you doing so.

Frankly, it is not very beneficial to the sport to reminisce about perceived glory days that, in many ways, were an illusion and a function of particular historical configuration.

[Grey beard]

Getting back to the idea of each person's individual 'brickwall' I can only say good luck Colac - if you keep at it you will definitely crack that sub 5 min mile one day very soon! In percentage terms the improvement needed is miniscule.

In my experience there's a related phenomenon - the 'great leap forward' after a mental brick wall is suddenly removed. Landy is probably an example of it in an elite athlete. My first few half marathons were tedious and tiring affairs that took between 1:50 and 2 hours. I couldn't imagine keeping up my 5 km pace (and the associated breathing pattern) for more than about 5 km. Then I ran several half marathons within a 6 month period at between 1:44 and 1:45 - consciously starting as if I was doing 5 km. But I couldn't get under 1:44.

I changed my training and concentrated on 5 km and 10 kms for a year or so, then started building distance for a marathon and one day out of nowhere did a 1:41 half - with 3 walk through drink stops that probably cost me a minute and a half. It's about the quality of your training, consistency, giving your body time to adapt - but as you say Colac, it's also very much in the mind!

And the 2 hr marathon? Well, I can't see how anyone can do 42 sub 3 minute kms in a row, but they do. It will come. The only question is when.

[Ralph Wiggum]

I'm unsure about the validity of this whole 'brick wall' theory. I'd probably sideline it with Prefontaine's theory that anyone can be beaten if you want it more. Certainly, maybe in some cases but the exception seems more common than the rule. Maybe what Pre really meant is that if you want the win more than the opposition with similar levels of fitness, then you will come out on top.

So Aussie athletes believing that they cannot be the first to run a sub2hr mara are "dream stealers" and not "realists"? Personally I think you can be positive and realisitc, as opposed to becoming a "dream stealer" or merely a "dreamer". Look at Mottram, wheres his brick wall? Who's stealing Busters dreams?

Maybe if I want to go under 35mins for the 10km I'll need to refer to myself in the third-person more often. Plus, purchase a sledgehammer to break the brickwall!

[Speedster]

The pre "No limits" theory is a great one. I feel that it has helped in the infancy of my running career. However, there comes a time when an athlete needs to reinvent his or herself. Strategy, pacing, experimentation and experience are other factors. I was so focussed and determined in the early part of my career. I think that this frame of mind could have ended my passion for running. So I set up a base of long training, started training with the best athletes in my area and recently I have improved my 10k pb. I now know why my early competitors drafted on me and strategised so well in order to beat me. Use all sorts of tactics and forget about any brick walls. Mottram, Elliot and Prefontaine asserted themselves with an unwavering self belief. I too have found that I believe that my current pbs are breakable. Training for years and developing ones self will enable pbs to be reset.

Colac- read about Percy Cerruty. You can do anything...if the mind is willing. :)

[Colac]

Seb Coe was an exceptional athlete, but I think his success was also due to the scientific way in which his Dad (Peter) and David Martin, PhD prepared him for the 800m. They altered the ratios for the three energy systems, and fine-tuned his race schedule to keep him getting stronger.

Cram might have taken another second off his time, if he had, earlier in his career, straightened up his foot placement by appropriate exercises. He was losing 1-2 inches every stride. If you have ever seen a photo of him in the final straight, you get a surprise where his toes are pointing - two o'clock off course !

WHILE I THINK OF IT:-

I read today that some knee soreness problems can be overcome by taking a longer stride. It reduces the knee joint "twisting" affect on impact of a shorter stride.

Theoretically, this could mean that higher intensity training will provide faster cadence, a longer stride, and less risk of knee soreness.

The faster we run, the lighter we should be on our feet, thus reducing impact stress on the knee.

[Running2Long]

Sorry to be pedantic re your initial post Colac but I believe John Walker broke Filbert Bayi's world mile record at Gothenburg not Gateshead. Unfortunately I am old enough to remember the newspaper front pages the next day.

Also, an Australian (Sunny Pintubi) already broke 2hrs for the marathon ... read 'The Games' by Hugh Atkinson!

Running2Long

[Colac]

Thanks for correcting me on Gateshead.

Can you give any details about this 2 hr marathon - I don't have a way of finding the link ?

[Digger]

Speedster,

Based on your 5km PB, I think your 10km can be improved a lot. Maybe to well under 33min.

This thread is becoming very interesting.

Colac,

What's with the concrete powder and referring to yourself in the third person???


Matt.

[Colac]

MattieO,

Whether I have a brick wall in my mind or not isn't really important - just thinking of the possibility is enough to let doubts start to creep in.

As the years roll by, I am closer to breaking 5 mins for the 1609.3 metres than at anytime in my life.

So carrying concrete around the hills is a diversion to let my thoughts regroup with a bit more resolve later on.

I just thought that a comparison with John Landy might help me refocus more clearly.

Its great to have feedback at a time when mindpower seems to be the buzz word for modern athletes - it's the cutting edge tool.

[Susie P]

quote:

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Our "elite" runners now earn too much money for too little effort(with one or two notable exceptions).

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What does this mean? The one or two notable exceptions you're probably referring to live overseas more than here because they are running a 'business' - earning more money than many most of us. They train exceptionally hard and spend a lot of time living out of a suitcase, so yes, they put in a lot of hard work and 'effort' - as for the rest of the elite... Where do we earn money? The 'small change' any elite athlete wins as prize money is not viable to live off and very few and far between. And as for this comment...

quote:

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if in the last 10 to 15 years if all of the so called "Elite" had have had Mangus's approach to racing, we would be a lot more prominant.

I don't think Mangus ever went to bed wondering "what if"

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How incrediably insulting. Although i admire the dedication and determination of such athletes like Magnus and many others for that matter, he is a long way down the list from the good runners we have had in the last 10-15years... I could write a list as long as my arm of the 'tough racers' out there who were, also, extremely motivating to watch. They might 'appear' to be effortless, but most 'elite' runners are. There is a lot more to take on board and consider before you can hit home with these comments trying to pinpoint why Aussies arn't more prominant in the running world.

[Sparkie]

Belatedly acknowling Res Ipsa Loquitur's brilliant post - I would have been proud to put my name to arguments of that quality.

One point of disagreement - even with a one second a lap discount, El Guerrouj is still 6 seconds ahead of Elliot over the mile - hardly the stuff of cry babies ;)

[Davo]

Just on a side issue, and in all seriousness : - Colac, why concrete powder? Isn't there the danger of it getting into your lungs with possible serious consequences?
Couldn't you have picked something just as heavy and cumbersome but not so potentially dangerous?