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Derek Clayton


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#1 Joecole26

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 05:45 PM

There's been reference to Derek Clayton on the website recently and I just wondered does anyone know his old training schedules? (no I certainly do not want to emulate it!). From reading Deeks book I heard it wasn't unusual for him to run 350kms in a week (and that was consistently). Is this true or is this just one of those urban myths that have sprung up? I would be very interested in any information people out there have on this amazing athlete.

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#2 Mister G

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 05:55 PM

If you can, get your hands on a copy of his book "Running to the Top"- he details his usual regimen there. Tim Noakes also summarises Clayton's training in his book, but I don't have either at hand right now.

Briefly though, Clayton usually ran twice a day, every day, and on the weekends did back to back long runs- a fairly hard road run of around 40K, and a hilly one in the Dandenongs of around 35K. He also ran intervals, but most of his training was at pretty hard pace anyway- often under 5 minute miles.

Ron Clarke joined him for a while on his runs in the Dandenongs, but from my understanding he stopped doing so eventually- thought Clayton was pushing the pace too much.

I'll try to dig out some more detail tonight.

#3 Jogger

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 06:58 PM

I posted this link in the long runs thread - gives a bit more insight into him.

#4 Andy X

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 07:18 PM

Thought I'd throw in the pommie 'equivalent' to Clayton and say check out Ron Hill for an amazing athlete when it comes to training and racing.
Ron's world record running streak still stands today having run every day at least once since December 21st 1964.
Ron logged all his training and would consistently run in excess of 200km per week, whether racing, injured or otherwise !!
Some weeks he would race 3 or 4 times during the week and still maintain this level of miles in his training.
His autobiography 'The Long Hard Road part one and part two' are excellent books and really motivation you to get out for your next session although with the advancement of time you cringe at some of his exploits e.g training when he was so injured the pain made him feel sick and almost pass out !
I read the books as a kid and have just spent close to 6 months scouring the ends of the earth to find copies of them to re-read. They are unfortunately out of print and very hard to come by - one guy in US wanted $100 USD for part two !!
Anyway check out the interesting article I found below on Ron -
http://www.ultramara...e/n28de00a.html

Incidentally, the link ?? Well Ron came up against Clayton a number of times in his clareer along with the likes of Ron Clarke.

#5 Joecole26

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Posted 26 August 2003 - 08:27 PM

Kevin, thnks for that article on Derek, all I can say is what a legend, shows what self belief and hard work can do (although he probably pounded himself too much!)  :D

#6 Colin

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:51 AM

Re the grumblings about the Antwerp course being short. Does that mean it could have been a 'Clayton's' record?  ;)

#7 Jogger

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 12:57 AM

Andy X - I have both volumes of Ron Hills books, currently heading Mister G's way for a reading.

Maybe I should start a library!

Ron Hill, of course, is a massive inspiration.

#8 ourimbar

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 04:22 PM

JUST ASK POLLY,HE MUST HAVE THE BOOK.....REGARDS PAUL  :D

#9 THE GOOD DOCTOR

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Posted 27 August 2003 - 05:09 PM

I have of a copy of Derek Claytons book of Run To The Top. Durring Dereks 10 week blocks of hard training his milage was often around 200 miles a week as shown in an extract of his training diary. There is little evidence of any type of interval work rather than lots of hard tempo running. (thats if you call running 10miles in 50 minutes tempo running) His training outside this I believe hovered aroun 120 miles a week.

While on the subject of animals, another brutal trainer was Aussie Garry Henry. I have first hand seen his training weeks and they too hovered around the 200mile range with 3 sessions a day and plenty of interval work (the real white kenyan)I guess the dont make them like they used to.

#10 Mister G

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 05:34 AM

I said I'd dig out more detail on Clayton's training.

Noakes (3rd edition) says he did 4x1600m intervals... as pointed out before, not much compared to modern day runners. From memory Clayton's 10K PB wa something in the low 28s... I'd suggest very few 2.08 (or better) marathoners would have such a "slow" 10K time. (I wouldn't mind being able to run a 28 minute 10K though!)

This is what Noakes has as a typical Clayton training week. From memory it's fairly similar to what Clayton listed in his book.

Day         Morning          Afternoon
Monday      8-11km easy      27km fast
Tuesday     8-11km easy      19km medium
Wednesday   8-11km easy      22km fast hills
Thursday    8-11km easy      22km fast hills
Friday      8-11km easy      16km easy
Saturday    7km easy         40km in 2.20
Sunday      27-32km hills    16km medium

  :)   Total around 240-250km/week.

Clayton said his Sunday afternoon 16km run was at a horse racetrack- so he could get the distance in without having to stop for traffic etc, and on a softer surface.

And he was working as an engineer during all this time!

Ron Hill's been mentioned as well. Hill was another fanatic trainer (of the same generation) who also worked fulltime- as a teacher, then later in his own business.

This is what Noakes has as a typical Hill week (excerpt from Hill's running diary for October 1968)

Day         Morning     Afternoon
Monday      11km        16km including fartlek
Tuesday     11km        14.5km including intervals
Wednesday   11km        19km including fartlek
Thursday    11km        13km
Friday      11km        11km
Saturday    Race
Sunday      33km, with a once-monthly 45km run

From what I know of Hill this is not a particularly high mileage week- Hill often went over 200km/week.

Here's a few more schedules of top distance men. This is interesting! All courtesy of Noakes.

Frank Shorter (Marathon Gold, 1972 Olympics)

Day         Morning             Afternoon
Monday      11km (4-4.23min/km) 16km (4min/km)
Tuesday     11km (4-4.23min/km) 4x1200m (3.06-3.12min/km)
Wednesday   11km (4-4.23min/km) 16km (4min/km)
Thursday    11km (4-4.23min/km) 12x400m (60-61sec)
Friday      11km (4-4.23min/km) 16km (4min/km)
Saturday    11km (4-4.23min/km) Race or 16km
Sunday 32km (first 16km @4min/km, ast 16km close to 3.07min/km)

Bruce Fordyce (9 Comrades Wins and 50 mile WR- 4.50)

Day         Morning     Afternoon
Monday      8km         16km
Tuesday     8km         8k (intervals/hills/tempo)
Wednesday   24km easy
Thursday    8km         10km (hills/intervals)
Friday      16km        8km
Saturday    8-16km      XC race
Sunday      42-64km

Around 170km/week.

Rob de Castella (WR marathon, World Marathon Champion 1983)

Day         Morning          Afternoon
Monday      10km in 38min    16km in 60min
Tuesday     10km in 38min    10km inc 12x200m
Wednesday   10km in 38min    29km hilly (1hr50)
Thursday    10km in 38min    10km inc 8x400m (63-64sec, 45 sec recovery)
Friday      10km in 38min    18km (64.45)
Saturday    19-21km;6x100m   Race or 10km in 38min
Sunday      33-36km (2.15-2.40)  8km (31min)

Around 205km/week.

#11 Mister G

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 02:32 PM

I'll also add, Fordyce's schedule is one of the more pointed examples of periodisation I've seen (along with Mark Allen's)- in his "off" season he raced on the track and did little distance stuff. In his "season" (building for Comrades in June) he did mainly a gradual ramping-up of distance from January till late March, only in late March or even April would he commence speedwork- hills in April, then intervals on the track until the race. His "peaking" phase (the week I posted above was from this phase) was about 10 weeks long.

Again, the source is Noakes' book.

#12 Joecole26

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Posted 28 August 2003 - 03:30 PM

Thanks Mr G. Those guys are animals! To absorb that kind of punishing training week in and week out gives me an even greater respect for those runners, truly amazing.

#13 Colin

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Posted 29 August 2003 - 05:52 AM

Interestingly the 90k specialist Fordyce did less than the marathoners even in his peaking phase.
During the period of his reign Fordyce was the ultimate example of focussing on one event, absolutely perfect preparation (knew exactly what his progress was without pushing in any other races), and most importantly an uncanny pace judgement. Never gave in to how well he might feel at the start.
You would switch on the telly at 6:00 am and watch various leaders until about 60k, with the Fordyce group nowhere to be seen. But the leaders would just know that he must be coming.What a scary thought. Is this the year that he fails or will he catch me as he usually does to the leaders. The Fordyce gp gets smaller and smaller until he suddenly appears, and the race has just begun.
Can 6hrs of watching a marathon ever be so exiting?

#14 Digger

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 04:35 PM

I've been putting together some of Derek Claytons Marathons(See attached Spread sheet).

I'm not sure whether this is a complete list, but has anybody else got anything which will update it?

In particular:

-I'm only guessing that Mentone was his 1st Marathon, as it was the only Marathon in Melbourne that year(I think).

-Plus any thing else which would update this list.


Year               City                    Country        Time    Place               Winner
27-Jul-1963 Mentone           Australia        3-00-02 Not Known          2-24-38(Ron Clarke)

2-Oct-1965 Preston(Melb)   Australia        2-22-12 1st
12-Aug-1967 Tyabb           Australia        2-18-28 1st
3-Dec-1967 Fukuoka             Japan               2-09-36 1st
9-Sep-1967 Adelaide             Australia         2-21-58 1st
25-May-1968 Hobart              Australia         2-14-48 1st
20-10-1968 Mexico City Mexico Olympics 2-27-23 7th               2-20-26(Mamo Wolde/Ethiopia)

21-May-1969 Ankara              Turkey         2-17-26 1st
30-May-1969 Antwerp              Belgium             2-08-33 1st
6-6-1970 Traralgon             Australia          2-13-39 1st

29-Aug-1971 Morwell              Australia           2-24-40 1st
25-Sep-1971 Hobart               Australia            2-11-08 1st
24-Jun-1972 Tyabb               Australia            2-20-25 1st
23-Jul-1972 Euroa               Australia             2-16-19  1st
10-9-1972 Munich               Olympics             2-19-49  13th       2hr-12-19(Frank Shorter/USA)

8-Aug-1973 Perth               Australia             2-12-07  1st
31-1-1974 Christchurch Commonwealth Games DNF               2hr-09-12(Ian Thompson/England)

Edited by Digger, 28 January 2007 - 03:23 PM.


#15 Jimboy

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Posted 27 January 2007 - 06:39 PM

Digger,the Traralgon Marathon was on 6/6/70,I ran that one a long,long way behind Clayton. :)
JIMBOY
Someone mentioned Gary Henry,if my memory is correct,that Traralgon Marathon was also his first,as a 16yr old who ran about 3.15.Someone will correct me if I am wrong,please.

Digger,further to above-
Mexico City race date was 20 Oct 1968
Munich                             10 Sep 1972
Christchurch                     31 Jan 1974

Edited by Jim Beisty, 27 January 2007 - 08:13 PM.


#16 lactatehead

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 03:03 PM

Dave Bedford was another one known for his mad training regime. Here is an example

Dave Bedford

These logs can be found on page 313 of Tim Noakes' Lore of Running.

Monday: am: 16km
noon: 10km
pm: 19km

Tuesday: am: 16km
noon: 10km
pm: 8km plus 8 x 800 m in 2:12/interval

Wednesday: am: 16km
noon: 10km
pm: 16km

Thursday: am: 16km
noon: 10km
pm: 15km plus 30 x 200m

Friday am: 8km
noon: 10km
pm: 24km

Saturday: am: 8km
noon: 24km
pm: 16km (fartlek)

Sunday: am: 8km
noon: 32km
pm: 8km

Weekly Total: 300 km

#17 Digger

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 03:21 PM

Jim,

Thanks, I've updated the list.

With respect to Gary Henry,

He was Born on the 17/5/1953, which means that at 16YO, he would have had to run the 1969 Traralgon Marathon, however, on that day, I think he beat me over 4 Miles, in an under 17 Race just before the Marathon.

Maybe somebody from Traralgon still has the results.

GH went on to run 2-10-09 at Fukuoka in 1980.

Edited by Digger, 28 January 2007 - 03:22 PM.


#18 Digger

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Posted 28 January 2007 - 03:26 PM

For "mad marathon training", I think Steve Jones would give DC a race for the title, and when I find my copy of "Running with the Legends", I'll give you a summary, but his "Taper" leading into a big race was 80Miles/week(130ish KM's)

#19 Tom31

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 06:13 AM

View Postlactatehead, on Jan 27 2007, 11:03 PM, said:

Dave Bedford was another one known for his mad training regime.

I think I read once that a large number of Dave Bedford's weekly Kms were also run in ankle weights.

#20 HillsAths1

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Posted 29 January 2007 - 10:33 AM

I wonder if the reason I can only do about 56-57 minutes for the C2S and those other guys do 40-42min might have something to do with them doing 200km a week and sometimes I might be able to sneak in a 200km month?

Edited by HillsAths1, 29 January 2007 - 10:34 AM.


#21 ava

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Posted 11 November 2007 - 11:42 PM

does anyone know why derek clayton had to receive 4 surgeries on his achilles tendon and 2 on his knees and 1 on his heel?

did he mention it in his book?

#22 Jimboy

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Posted 12 November 2007 - 03:03 PM

View Postava, on Nov 11 2007, 01:42 PM, said:

does anyone know why derek clayton had to receive 4 surgeries on his achilles tendon and 2 on his knees and 1 on his heel?

did he mention it in his book?

Yes,he did mention his injuries in his book "Running to the Top".It is a great read.
Derek was a big lad,6ft2ins tall and about 72Kgs in weight.He trained harder than anyone I was ever aware of at the time.He was a ruthless competitor,an all or nothing trainer/ racer of the old school.
His own worst enemy in that regard I think that he would probably admit.Among some of the best marathon performances of all time he suffered horrendous injuries of achilles,knee and heels,all really due to his insistence on big mileage at fast speed,lots on road surfaces.Four achilles tendons operations,two each on knees and nose and one on his heel,to quote his book.
A true trailblazer,I once asked him what was the minimum weekly mileage needed to race a competent marathon.He suggested a minimum of 80 miles/130Km.He was doing up to 100 miles a week before he began a specific ten week marathon training schedule for his designated peak races.In that ten week programme he would increase from 120 to 170 miles per week,increasing quality as he progressed.
What a champion.

#23 nvrgvup

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 07:01 PM

Quote

He trained harder than anyone I was ever aware of at the time.

His training was exceptionally hard but Gerry Lindgren's training schedule at one stage in his career was even harder.  At one point in his career Lindgren apparently ran 350miles a week for 6 weeks! The excerpt from a book that Iím about to post and some of the stories about him like that he was on pace to break 2 hours for the marathon twice, he ran a 4-mile cross country race in 16:08 (others say 16:54, either of those two times is exceptionally quick even in todayís standards and this was 40 years ago! Even on a downhill course I find this unlikely as this is quicker than Bekele's 5km world record pace for a longer distance!) and did 88mile long runs at a descent speed sound made up, but that is what Lindgren has said.

Running With the Champions by Marc Bloom:

As a high school senior in 1964, Lindgren ran three times a day. He ran 5 or 6 miles in the morning, another 8 to 14 miles with the track team in the afternoon, and after going to sleep, got up at 1:00 or 2:00 A.M. for 10 more miles in the middle of the night. With added mileage on weekends, Lindgren says that he collected over 200 miles a week.
On weekdays, Lindgren switched between distance and speed with the Rogers team. If he did 400s, he did 15 of them in 60 seconds with a 400 jog between. If he did 800s, he did 8 of them in 2:05 to 2:10 with a 400 jog. These were world-class workouts, but Lindgren was running world-class times.
At Washington State, Lindgren's schedule initially allowed for only two workouts a day. He did his morning 5 or 6 miles and another 10 with the team in the afternoon. His favorite run was a 10-mile course through wheat fields. Lindgren says that his best time was 46:05, faster than Ron Clarke's world record on the track.
During one period at college, in late summer of 1967, Lindgren decided to outdo himself. He said that a physiologist at the school warned him against running more than 90 miles a week or risk breaking down. "I wanted to prove him wrong," said Lindgren. He proceeded to run 50 miles a day, 350 a week, for 6 weeks. "I ran at least five workouts a day," said Lindgren. "I felt great." He had a vegetarian diet, eating several meals a day.
Almost every weekend as a high school senior, and about once a month throughout his career, Lindgren ran 88 miles round-trip on Sunday to the top of Mt. Spokane. He'd start out at 5:00 in the morning and try to get back home by 4:00 P.M. Once, he got back around 2:30 P.M., better than 7 minutes a mile all the way. "Those last 5 miles were hell," he says.

Most people will probably think itís not true which is understandable. But he was world class and running close to world records at a young age. He was one of the only people to beat Prefontaine at an NCAA race. He even shared a world record with Billy Mills at one point as a junior. A sprained ankle destroyed any chance he had of medaling in the 1964 Tokyo Olympics 10km. The winner Billy Mills, was beaten by Lindgren in the American trial. I would love to get a copy of his book 'Gerry Lindgren's book on Runningí; the guy was an inspiration to many.

Gerry Lindgren Interview

Movies on Lindgren In the 'gerry25.mov' video Gerry talks about his legendary training schedule. In one of the other videos Gerry talks about the 2 times he was on pace to run sub-2hours.

#24 nvrgvup

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Posted 18 November 2007 - 07:58 PM

Gerry Lindgren's normal training of 25 - 35 miles a day is believable but because of some of the stories about him people don't know what to believe!