Hi All
Brief description of where I am now:
160lb male runner of 8 months experience. Low arches & overuse led to a bout of achilles tendonosis which is getting a lot better. Training for the Great Ocean Road in May - a few weeks into my 18 week build up.

I'd like to build up my lower leg/ankle which is where I suffer aches on long runs (using Saucony Progrid 5 Guide). I've started to read Chi Running and am intrigued by the posts on here around barefoot & pose.

My running plan at the moment is 5km on Monday, 5-15km intervals/tempo ramp up on Wed, 3km recovery on Friday and long steady distance on Saturday. Any thoughts on integrating the running technique practice with the marathon ramp up? e.g.

Wk1-3 : Introduce a lightweight shoe/flats for my 3km recovery run on Friday only using "regular" stability shoes for all others
Wk4-6: transition to the 5km and 3km recovery runs in flats
Wk7-9: all runs in flats except the long slow distance
Wk10-12: Introduce the 5fingers in the 3km run and so on

- Anyone done anything similar? I'm a sucker for plans, metrics & diaries.
- Would you not bother at all given my low arches, and resultant pronation?
- Wait until after the GOR run before messing about?
- The Frees are too narrow for me - any alternatives you can recommend?

Questions questions questions...

What's the GOR?

I reckon the Great Ocean Road Marathon?

That didn't occur to me, because the programme he describes sure doesn't look like a marathon preparation.

I'm in week 3 of 18 (endurance phase) for the Great Ocean Road Marathon with yesterdays long slow distance 18km in a smidge under a couple of hours - following a pattern in "4 Months to a 4hr Marathon" by David Kuehls (I didn't put the cross training sessions in the post as I didn't think it too relevant to the barefoot/shoe type thread). The Runners World rookie training plan/Hal Higdon's beginners plan and a few others also use some of the same basis - happy to listen to alternatives though.

Perhaps work on some foot strength and stability and proprioception training for a while first using a duradisc (barefoot)?

duraDisc

I've been easing into barefoot practice during cool downs. Presently, I run 2km barefoot three times a week. When I started I just did 1km once a week, and prior to that I did a couple of weeks of barefoot walking (1-2km) once a week.

After doing my long, slow, weekend run in the rain yesterday it was great fun to take the shoes off and splash through the puddles barefoot for the last couple of km home.

slowmo

My suggestion would be to incorporate very short distance barefoot drill work most days, maybe as part of your warm up.
It is an approach I took to make some substantial improvements to my biomechanics.

My approach was:
8-20x30-60 metres of drills, sprints on grass

gradually progressing up to 4-8x200m repeats with many different variations in the progression.

Jason - did you also do slower / longer bouts barefoot ? Or did you find that the barefoot speed drills alone improved your running over distance ?

slowmo

Only rarely did a few relatively longer runs of 1000-3000m either on an athletics track or grass oval. The speed was relatively fast, @ approximately 3-5km pacing, but these were very infrequent, maybe once every couple of months for a one year period. Most of the work was as described above.

Re: Robbo
1. Practice some of the drills here, each day.
2. Spend a few minutes doing barefoot jump rope each day. That'll help strengthen the feet, ankles, and calves. Just be careful not to whack your toes!
3. Begin very, very, very slowly and easily. First, start off with just the drills and jump rope, then begin adding in short runs. Until you get used to doing it with proper form, you're going to have a lot of soreness in the calves. I suppose you can do a typical shod run afterward too, if you want to keep up your conditioning levels, but that may counteract the skill work you would have just done with the forefoot running drills... and you don't want to do skill work after you're fatigued already (from a shod run) either, since then you won't have as good control.

Thanks guys - really useful starting points. I'll be sure to build up slowly using your advice... will let you know how I get on...

Robbo

i started wearing the nike free 3 for a few runs then every day then got some vibram 5 fingers can do my recovery runs in them and frees normal days and racing flats for speed workouts. i have always worn orthotics and now have been running5 months with only these 3 pairs of shoes. i have done the chi running course fantastic and my leg turn over has got faster and i am running from my centre a lot more...... i think you need to be careful with the vibrams my heels got smashed up after using them for a speed workout and my achilles were very tight and i have never had achilles problems. so am not doing fast work in them and if you land on a rock your feet will hurt!!!!!!!! good luck
kirsten

Hi Kirsten - welcome to coolrunning !

Interesting you were previously wearing orthotics - was that to correct overpronation?

hi there yep the orthotics were to correct over pronation. if you run barefoot or in the vibrams and you land on your heels it hurts so i think we were not meant to have heel cushioning it is making us run incorrectly then we spend more time getting injured and not running as efficiently as we could. we were created to run barefoot!!! just my thinking!

hi Robbo

you say you have low arches, are you a pronator or a supinator?

i also have flat arches, but i am a supinator which is an unusual combination. after an acute achilles problem, my physio suggested control shoes (as i refused orthotics) to support my arches, but it just caused a lot of pain.

the result was that, half way through a training session, i took off my shoes, and immediately felt a million times better. i am now going to invest in some frees. i have been advised to buy 5.0s, as 7.0s have an inbuilt arch, and 3.0s would be too much to transition to straight away.

i read the article attached to Patrick's post above on pose running and it looks very interesting. my achilles problem was definitely agravated by heel striking, and when running barefoot i naturally midfoot or forefoot strike, so i am sure that shoes cause an unnatural action.

Where do you guys run barefoot? Trails, roads, grass?

The only barefoot running i do is a weekly session at the beach which i love. I want to start running barefoot in other sessions but im not sure if i should try road running barefoot or if that would be too much stress on my joints because there would be no shock absorption. I could run grass but there is no long trail that is completely grass unless i ran around a field but doing that for 10kms seems pretty boring. I'd also be a bit scared of treading on some glass or something that i couldnt see.

I'd love to run trails barefoot, too bad its so rocky!

Since August, I've been running almost entirely on sidewalk in my Vibram FiveFingers, pain-free.

Good question emjay. I feel that I don't pronate as much as my static review would suggest. I have low, but not flat arches. I've been running in Saucony Trigon 5 Guides for the most part during my achilles tendonosis issues (to be fair, I think it is much more likely as a result of too much too soon than the shoes). I don't feel like I push off the inside or big toe at all. I got hold of a light neutral shoe that fits my wide-ish feet - Saucony Sinister - and had a pleasant 6km pain free run in them yesterday focussing on form. Getting the hang of this mid/forefoot strike business ! Am planning to go back to the same running shop in a few months and redo the gait review - interested to see how it's changed. I also suspect it's the shoes that drive the heel striking which annoys my achilles.

Wish I could've fitted in some Frees or lighter shoes but the Sinisters are a nice stepping stone albeit a little blue. I really struggle with getting the right fit (NB, Adidas, Nike, Asics, Mizuno...) - even the sinisters are a smidge on the snug side.

On an aside, I went for a 2km barefoot walk around the (Singapore) botanic gardens the other day - really enjoyable and a surprising workout ! Even just the walk, I felt needed a bit of precautionary ice on the achilles afterwards - slowly does it.

Much of the barefoot running theory is that it allows the foot and calf to act as the natural shock absorbers they evolved to be, which happens with a mid/fore foot strike, but not a heel strike.

Heel striking is created by the 'shock absorbing' footwear we are told we need by shoe designers. You should notice that when you run with a fore/mid foot strike you don't feel as much impact (well I feel it!), and less impact means that natural shock absorbtion is happening correctly.

I did 3km barefoot last week, my longest bf run so far, on bitument and concrete footpaths. A couple of months ago my soles felt sore after a few minutes of bf walking on smooth-ish bitumen (tender pommy feet). Now running the 3km, as a cool-down after running in shoes, felt terrific.

My feet don't appear to have developed big calluses although I imagine the skin probably has thickened in places. But I'm guessing the greater ease of bf running now has more to do with getting used to the feeling and unconscious changes in style (?)

slowmo

I started out as a runner with flat feet and a huge overpronation problem, wearing heavy motion control shoes with orthotics. I still had major injury issues (tendonitis) so tried barefoot in desperation.

I've been running barefoot on grass/sand/concrete/bitumen for about 15 months now. I do wear Vibrams for trail though, as you can't see exactly what's on the ground. When I started it was only on grass for short times, and I built up from there. I'm happy to run any distance now barefoot (longest so far of 42k on bitumen)

I have developed very tough skin on the mid/forefoot, but no calluses. When I started out I got a few bits of glass in my feet, but that taught me to be more watchful of where my feet were landing!

Like anything new, it takes time to relearn some techniques and patience to develop the muscles etc. Calves and achilles work extra hard, so lots of stretching and massage worked for me.

Hi RunBare
Sounds like an interesting story - did you just ditch your shoes and just do drills and slowly build up from pretty much no mileage or did you slowly transition from your motion control shoes to maintain some conditioning/weekly km habit? While this is a shoes thread, I'm interested to know how long your (achilles?) tendonitis problem took to clear up.

I have never trained barefoot, it just happened about 30 marathons ago. I have always had knee problems due to playing rugby league in my youth. As my knees got worse, they used to "lock up" about 20ks into the Marathon, I was told I had baker cysts at the back of my knees and the fluid would drain into them as I ran. As a result I would walk most of the second half.

One Marathon I was running ok when my knees started to lock up, I was so upset I stopped, threw of my shoes and was about to withdraw. But as my feet no longer were rasied due to the padding in my shoes, the fluid from my kness flowed back and I was able to run home the final 22k's.

Since I have doing this for a few years, my knees have recoverd and now I can run Marathons quite comfortably in racing flats, however I miss the thrill and challenge. Running "barefoot" in the Cities last year and seeing RunBear coming towards me also "barefoot" is a unique memory.

I find running barefoot on the white painted strip on the road the easiest. Beware running on grass due to glass, bindies and stray needles. Sand is great if you live near a beach, but avoide concrete and gravel roads.

It was tendonitis (I believe tibialis posterior tendon? from the arch up towards my calf) due to excessive overpronation. I wanted to do a marathon but knew I couldn't tolerate the pain for that long running.

I took the (almost brand new) motion control shoes off and have never put them back on to run. Tried them on for recently and can't believe I used to run in them They're so heavy.

I didn't do drills, but just walked barefoot as much as I could for a week or so. At least 5-8km a day. I focussed on mid-forefoot strike to change my style. Then I ran some of the km and made the distances progressively longer. Lots of good massage as my calves were sore.

BUT no more tendonitis and I've not had it return, despite now running 3-4 times as much as I used to. My ankles, feet and lower legs are stronger, and I don't see myself running in 'proper' shoes again anytime soon, though I use Vibrams and sometimes Nike Frees for long trail runs.

If you're going to do it, slowly and carefully is my advice. I had no upcoming 'races' so I could just concentrate on my form and getting it right for me. It was 5 months before I tried it out for real at the SMH Half 07. The first of many pain free runs.

And the Cities Marthon in July 07 with Barefoot.... magic

Robbo,

achilles tendonitis is a difficult problem to deal with, as the achilles has a low blood supply and so takes a long time to heal. treatments i would suggest are:
1) gentle stretching - only when muscles are warm (eg after a shower), both with straight and bent knee, but be VERY careful not to over stretch as you could do more damage
2) massage - again dont overdo it, its more to stimulate circulation to the area
3) arnica cream - its a natural alternative to nurofen or voltaren and promotes healing

i have been reading another thread about Lydiard. i got a copy of his book, and was interested and surprised to see that he promotes heel striking, as i find this aggravates my achilles issues and i have also been advised by specialists to avoid it because of the stress of impact. but i guess different techniques suit different people.

Background:
I am not running barefoot but have a keen interest in one day progressing to including some in my training, but I have significantly changed my foot strike over the last 12 months, very slowly, progressing from a heavy heel striker (who could never run more than 60kms a week and was always injured) to being able to soildly maintain a decent mid/fore foot strike for up to 10km runs. I am also consiously alternating my foot strike during long runs as well, and trying to really limit any heel strike now that I have the strength to maintain the better foot strike for longer and longer periods.

Question:
I know this is a difficult question to answer, but in changing foot strike and developing the new foot strength required, how long did people find the calf pain persisted for, and how much calf pain should I still be running with?

My soleus on both legs is just getting sorer and sorer and I can't seem to get any relief from stretching them or massaging them. I want them to start to feel better for 6 Foot! (I have backed off my training already and only have one 3 hour long run to go)

My calves were sore for about two weeks before they got used to it. Even now I make sure to stretch them more than the other muscles and massage them every now and then.

I still get a bit of achillies pain though...except this morning running in my 5 fingers I took it easy for the first time (it's so easy to go faster when you're not wearing big shoes) and the pain diminished.

Claves hurt for about a month when I first started, but massage and stretching sorted it out. Like phYx, I take extra care to make sure I still stretch this area carefully. I only get pain in my calves if I do a very long/tough run, but then I'm hurting all over anyway!

Thanks RunBare and phYx

I hope it passes in the next few weeks.....I've just gotten to that stage where I am able to maintain the better foot strike for longer than ever, but it also coincided with my biggest training weeks pre-Six Foot!! I don't want to go back to heel striking just to get my calves to feel better, as it feels yuck! So hopefully the taper for 8th March will give them time to recover!!

I hope to invest in a pair of 5 fingers in the next few months!! And after Six Foot some barefoot beach running is in the plan. But I am planning on making this a very long transition!

Hi everyone, I have a question:

After re-starting running about a month ago, I decided to restart as a midfoot striker, rather than a heel striker, as I was when I stopped running over a year ago.

Now after a month of training, I still can't run more than 2km midfoot striking. I want to enter the SMH half today, but as it is only 2 months away, I'm worried that I won't be able to run the distance. I'm seriously considering giving up this project, and reverting to heel striking, but I'm worried that old injuries will return.

What's wrong firstly the calf thing that people have commented on before in this thread, but also that I feel like I am less efficient with this new way of running, getting tired early.

Has anyone got any advice? I've tried everything so far, such as the drills suggested, stretching, reading up on 'pose' and 'Chi' technique etc. This is so frustrating, it's making running "not fun" for me. I don't want this crusade of mine to make me give up running altogether, but I also don't want to fall too far behind goals that I've held for a long time (such as breaking a 90min HM).

Sorry to revive an old thread, but any responses would be great.

I wonder if it is possible to correctly forefoot strike in the average running shoe. i have an issue at the moment so i can not wear shoes for very long other than nike frees so I have started walking 5km each day barefoot or in fivefingers. Then running later on in my frees.

I have noticed the way I run feels so much different to running in say my Nike Pegasus. My forefoot landings seem more natural and less forced. They feel smoother and there is much less loading on my achilles and calves.

I also think that when we try to change our style we over emphasize things and rather then just relaxing the foot and lower leg and letting it fall we force our foot to land in the position we feel is correct. that ain't going to work over a distance and will lead to calf problems.

Personally I would just forget about it when running normally and just get out 1 or 2 times a week and run barefoot, in fivefingers or something minimal. then let your body figure it all out. Changes should happen very slowly but they will happen.

Tonic, I had to transition in an interval fashion, and it took me about 12 months to get to where I am now, and I can pretty much run 10kms these days without having to 'take a break' from my new midfoot strike style and revert to heel striking.

However I do find that my heel strike is far less pronounced than it use to be, so reverting is not the evil of all evils and it won't instantly render you injured.

For example I would use roughly 50m, then 100m, sections of my runs, then build gradually further and further with my improved strength at holding the improved foot strike. I would particularly focus on it during my interval sessions, which are done on a 600m grass circuit, early on I could only do it for the 2nd half of each interval, now I hold it for every interval.

Don't despair, you WILL get there eventually, but it will take a very long time. And it's worth it 100%, believe me, my injury history and my current running level is testament to that.

Hi Tonic,
I wouldnt give up on training for the half just yet! I was a typical heel striker for many years and got leg problems when training for anything more than 50kms a week. I started running with Max Delacy from fit2run.com.au about a year ago and havn't looked back. He teaches a running style which is a cross between pose and chi and it really works for me. I now run exclusively in fivefingers and don't plan on wearing running shoes again.
It took me some time to really get the hang of this running style. The short steps, forward lean, knees bent, soft landing on the midfoot etc etc It felt odd!!! I know what you mean about feeling less efficient. I felt this way at first and thought I was better of running my old style as it felt a lot easier. I guarantee if you persevere it is well worth it.
I ran a hilly 20kms this morning in just under 5min kms on road, track and grass and my legs feel great. There is no way I could have done that the way I used to run. I completed my second 1/2 marathon in December (in fivefingers) in 97 minutes, 20 minutes faster than my first one 5 years ago!
And another great thing....I now have defined leg muscles and actually have hamstrings for the first time ever!!
Stick with it and hope to see you at the SMH half.
Sallyl

Hey Tonic, are you less efficient in terms of movement of legs or less efficient in terms of breathing? Are you wearing big shoes, flats, 5fingers, or going barefoot? Are you continuing to take long strides rather than shortening your stride? Are you running faster than you were before?

For the past month I have been running 3 or 4 times a week in vibram 5fingers with a forefoot strike. It took me a while to be able to work up to that and found that it is very easy for me to go faster due to increased efficiency in legwork, and light footwear. When I wear regular running shoes (which I do for all long runs) I find my heart rate is on average 5bpm higher than when I wear the 5fingers, so I run out of steam sooner, even though I'm usually running slower.

I know when I am getting tired it is probably because I am wearing regular running shoes so my feet feel heavier, my heart rate is higher, and I am probably getting lazier and taking longer slower strides.

Also, with the calf thing, I used to wear compression sock thinggies afterwards to help recovery.

great stuff Sally.

so how did you transition to your new style and footwear?

I wear my "ted" hospital compression socks to work a lot and it really helps, plus that reminds me...last week I went to the physio for an adjustment to make sure my back is nice and loose for Saturday (!!) and while she worked on my back she put acupuncture needles in all these different spots in my calves, the next day I ran I did one of my regular runs 5 minutes faster than usual, thanks to a taper in training, but also my calves felt FANTASTIC!

I've nearly got calf "muscles" for the first time ever too!

Yay for added benefits of barefoot!

can you girls stop talking about your defined legs




well maybe I could hear a little more

hi tonic,one if the things that happens when people start midfoot striking is that it creats an imbalance between what you want to do and what is natural for your body,not everyone can midfoot strike,you need long,healthy calves and hammies and a "sticky out bum"ie a fairly deep curve in the lumbar spine or at least the range of movement to achieve it,the psoas strech needs to be done properly and often,then the longer psoas needs to be integrated into your running action by the new foot placement,this can take some people years.just going barefoot and midfoot striking does not necessarily achieve this.mid foot striking is more propulsive and asks more of your cardiovascular system as you are running faster to get it right.i'm a swimmer now and i have observed lots of people doing endless stroke drills and not going any faster-you have to go faster to get it to "click"-briz

Yes, more..lets see some photos please....

I said "nearly"!! perhaps when I actually get them

Thank you so so so so so so so so much to tim, littleblackpug, SallyL, phYx and brizza.

You are all so nice, and you've answered so quickly!

phyx you asked some questions:

I find I'm less efficient in terms of breathing, yes. Well what I mean by that is that I'm breathing harder (percieved effort is higher). In terms of movement I don't really know how to measure that. I'm going slower than I used to, when compared to a heel-strike (normal for me) run I did as my first run back about a month ago. I'm running in my normal shoes, which are neutral flats. I'm taking little steps now. That's a huge difference as I used to take big ones, especially downhill. I'm not running faster than I was before, but with my loss of running fitness after such a long break, I could be pushing myself more than I think.

Thanks everyone for all your comments, I think I'm going to give it another couple of weeks of the same stuff, then re-assess the situation. It will be about time to start training for the half then anyway, and I'll have a better picture of how I'm coping with my effort.
At that stage, I might switch to doing my longer runs 'the old way' or even get a running coach - SallyL your experience of injuries every time you went over 50km/week sounds so familliar!
I really do want fivefingers, but they are going to be a present to myself when I have this new style sorted out.

If anyone wants to share their personal experiences about how they transitioned to this sort of running, let loose... I'm off for a run.

Could someone please explain what "five fingers" are and perhaps post a link. Are they a type of running shoe?
Sorry to sound so ignorant.

I reckon you should give yourself that present now! When I first experimented with forefoot landing, it eased some problems and allowed me to run further with existing injuries, but it really is difficult in normal running shoes. Since November last year I've been increasing frequency and distance in the 5fingers and they have just made everything so much easier. In fact, I was able to increase mileage while getting over an injury at the same time. Lately the only times I sense my old injuries returning is while wearing running shoes. At some point I will probably introduce 5 fingers to my long runs, making my regular running shoes obsolete.

don't they have google in tassie

fivefingers

I found the same thing Tonic. I had to retrain myself to run and it took a long time until I could midfoot strike for the whole run. I'd revert to heel striking when I was tired. It was worth it in the end for me as it reduced injuries, but it would be difficult to perfect it in such a short time and still want a PB over a long distance like the Half Mara.

After 14 months of barefoot running, I've also noticed the more defined calves and hammies. A great reason for no shoes

Hi Tim,
I didn't really have a plan for the transition it kind of just happened. I started to change my running style after training with Max over a year ago. I had been running for years and felt I wasn't getting much out of it for the amount of time I put in. I had no idea our running style could make such a difference to performance. Max taught me the whole pose/chi thing and I have been trying to perfect it ever since. It was a bit hard to get my head around at first but now I am running much more efficiently and not just dragging myself around the park like before. The barefoot thing came about from this style of running as it is a lot easier to do without shoes.
I didn't quiet get the fivefingers thing at first. The main reason I got them was because Max wore them and I thought it would be cool to run like him!! (OK, Im dreaming..) I tried Nike frees first and didn't go much on them at all. Even less after completing the City 2 Surf in 67 mins, 7 mins slower than my expected time and around 4 mins slower than what I do it in most Sundays. I should have worn fivefingers for that one but was a bit nervous as I hadn't raced in them before. After the C2S I did my first race in fivefingers, the 9km Bridge run in 38mins. I was amazed at how effortless it felt and how great my legs felt the next day. I was expecting something to hurt but nothing did. That convinced me to throw out the frees and run only in fivefingers. I now own 4 pairs of fivefingers and even wear them to work. They did take a little to get used to. I had stiff calves for a few weeks but the secret is to wear them in slowly.
I only wish I had worked all this out years ago.............

A few questions;

First are Tim and SallyL the same person?? I noticed Tim has edited one of SallyL's posts on 2nd March.

Why the slow gradual build in barefoot running? Is it sue to foot softness and wear of the skin? or more to do with the the overload on the muscularity of the legs etc with the new running style?

I do the opposite to many of you here in that I run in my shoes first and then do the last part of my runs on a grass track in bare feet, does anybody see advantages or disadvantages to either order?

How protective are fivefingers for your feet from glass, stones etc on tar roads?

Train safe

the quote was broken so I fixed it. As a moderator I am able to go into posts. I did not alter any of the content.

barefoot running is a change and all changes should be gradual. It is really all of those things you mention. I read once on barefootrunning.org that if you only run barefoot your soles will wear out and make you rest before any other part so you are less likely to get an over use injury.

I did get a stone bruise in my fivefingers when running down a trail. They do not have thick soles so they do not have the same protection as regular runners but they give a surprising amount of protection.